What Is a Strengths-Based Manager? Part 2

Called to Coach Webcast Series -- Season 11, Episode 30

Below are audio and video plus a transcript of the conversation, including time stamps.

Managers who are able to identify their team members' talents and help them become aware of how their talents impact their lives gain significant individual and team benefits. But becoming a powerful strengths-based manager requires managers to go deeper -- into Talent Application, which is "being able to point [team members'] talents at goals that are meaningful and productive [and] contribute to others," according to Gallup's Dean Jones. What can managers do to weave this skill into the way they manage their teams? What techniques are available to make them more effective at talent application? How can managers excel at having meaningful conversations with employees? Join us and ground your managing -- and your coaching -- in strengths.

A fundamental thing for managers, when they employ a coaching technique, is to start by being ... good at asking great questions.

Dean Jones, 17:48

The boost from meaningful feedback is 4 times the lift in engagement from having the right number of days in the office.

Dean Jones, 26:27

Great managers, we know, when they're coaching, are not just listening to fix problems; they're listening to develop people.

Dean Jones, 50:22

Jim Collison 0:01
I am Jim Collison, and this is Gallup's Called to Coach, recorded on September 8, 2023.

Jim Collison 0:20
Called to Coach is a resource for those who want to help others discover and use their strengths. We have Gallup experts and independent strengths coaches share tactics, insights and strategies to help coaches maximize the talent of individuals, teams and organizations around the world. If you're listening live on YouTube or on LinkedIn, we'd love your comments there in chat. If you're listening after the fact, you can always send us an email with your questions. Send that to coaching@gallup.com. Don't forget to subscribe to the podcast on your favorite podcasting app or right there on YouTube, so you never miss an episode. Dean Jones is our host today, Dean is the Global Talent Development Architect and a Senior Learning Expert for Gallup as well as the chair of Gallup's Diversity Council. And, Dean, it's just great to be with you on Fridays. We should do this every Friday! Welcome back to Called to Coach!

Dean Jones 1:03
Every Friday would be a lot!

Jim Collison 1:07
What matters is it would make my Friday better.

Dean Jones 1:10
I think we would like it. I don't know that other people would like it as much as we would like it.

Reviewing Part 1

Jim Collison 1:13
I think the audience would. I think you're the only one that loses in this because all the work that you put into it. We are talking about Part 2 of What Is a Strengths-Based Manager? I think you want to kind of recap Part 1 a little bit before we dive in. You want to get us started on that?

Dean Jones 1:30
Yeah, so we did, a few weeks ago now, that we, we did Part 1 of this. And, and the idea was to really start to look at what does it mean to be a strengths-based manager? So obviously, it's something that we've explored a lot over the last couple of decades, in books, in articles, in courses, in coaching -- we've done a lot around this. But it was to kind of look at OK, really what does it mean to be a strengths-based manager? What does it mean to be able to do that? I would say I think it's, what's, what sparked my thinking a lot about this is a lot of the reading that I've been doing, I've been reading a number of different books. And, you know, after we published our book, It's the Manager, this notion of the, the power of managers and the power of being a strengths-based manager has really been, has really been important. So last time, I think we just talked, we kind of laid the groundwork, really, to be able to talk about, What are some of the fundamental things that a strengths-based manager should be or a strengths-based manager should do?

Dean Jones 2:29
And some of the things we said was, a strengths-based manager is aware of their own strengths and weaknesses. And that self-awareness is an important piece. We also talked about that strengths-based managers should be aware of the strengths and weaknesses of the people that they manage. Right? So we, and we talk a little bit about what does that mean? And how does that, how does that kind of play out? We also said last time that a strengths-based manager knows the power of CliftonStrengths^®. So they, they, you know, CliftonStrengths is really a tool for them. And provide, is incredibly powerful for them and really can elevate a manager's ability. So really understanding that tool and being able to use that, that tool in a way that's, that's powerful is useful for them.

Dean Jones 3:11
Then we talked about the whole thing about how, when you go up a notch from kind of those fundamental things -- Do I know my strengths? Do I know others' strengths? Do I know the tool I'm using? The next level of that really is being able to manage the employee experience through the lens of talent. So how do, each stage in that employee experience, can you go through and you really understand how you're, you're seeing that through the lens of talent, and then using strengths as a powerful piece of that? And that, that's basically what we covered last time. i, that's really where I'd like to kind of pick up for today's conversation -- to really start to look at OK, given, given all that, given you got a manager that does all that, kind of what's next, or where do they focus?

Jim Collison 3:56
That's awesome. Good, good recap. I'm gonna have you point your mic, bring it a little bit closer to you. I'm getting just a little bit, just, just --

Dean Jones 4:03
How's that?

Strengths and Employee, Team Performance: 3 Core Phases

Jim Collison 4:04
Yeah, that's a lot better. Thank you for doing that. Let's dive, let's dive into Part 2. Give us a little bit of an overview. get us started. And let's dive in.

Dean Jones 4:12
Yeah, I think the challenge with a lot of managers who want to be strengths based is that they don't know really how to use CliftonStrengths as a tool to be able to drive employee and team performance, right. So what you see with a lot of managers that use CliftonStrengths, you know, I literally talked to somebody the other day, where they use it as a great kind of self-awareness tool for, not just for themselves, but for their teams. So it's this, it's this great kind of tool. It's a great kind of, it's a nice kind of team-building activity for them, but they're not using -- they, they never really see the power of strengths because they're not really using it to be able to drive employee performance, individual employee performance, or team performance. So what we know is, is, is that it's this, when it's used properly, it's this incredibly powerful tool that is a game-changer for teams. But we, for most for most managers, they, they're never getting to that piece. And I think it's, one of the things -- I've said this before, but -- it's one of the things I think is important for strengths coaches, is that they're able to help managers to understand this and understand how to start to use it.

Dean Jones 5:23
I always break down the, strengths development into 3 kind of core phases, right. And I think it's useful for, for, for thinking about, for being able to kind of think about, for, to be able to think about this, right? The first phase is Talent Identification, right. And that's really the piece where we start to understand all the dimensions of your innate talents, really starting to be able to identify what my talents are, like that, right. The second phase is Talent Awareness. This is where you become aware of your talents and how they impact your life, and accept and appreciate those, that unique combination of talents that you have, right. And again, most, what I notice is most managers are kind of hanging out in those first 2 phases: Identifying Talents, Talent Awareness, right. So when they work with their people around strengths, it's, Hey, did you do the assessment? Did you get your report? Do you understand the report? Are you aware of your talents? Are you aware of other people's talents? Have you accepted your talents? You know, Do you appreciate your talents? Do you appreciate other people's talents? It's that whole conversation tends to be a lot of what happens, right.

Dean Jones 6:34
And the pays, the place that I think we got to move managers to really become a powerful strengths-based manager is to move into a third phase, which, which I call Talent Application. And that's really being able to point those talents at goals that are meaningful and productive, that contribute to others, and, and being able to start to build strengths-based strategies that, over time, yield better and better results. Right? So it's, it's, now that I've identified what my talents are, now that I'm aware of my talents, can I as an employee, start to apply them in a meaningful and productive way? Right? And a way that enables, that contributes to the team, contributes to others, contributes to our success, right? And do I have strategies where I become reliable around that, right, where I'm able to do that in a reliable way? So that's the, that's the phase I think we want to kind of push managers into, so that they really start to see the power of CliftonStrengths, right? I can always tell the difference, by the way. I talked to a manager that is aware of their strengths, and I can tell when I talk to him, I can tell, Hey, are they hanging out in this area where it's about identifying and becoming aware of talents? Or is, are strengths, is strengths really a tool for them that they can, that you're using to really be able to drive team performance?

Jim Collison 7:52
Yeah, Dean, you know, I think in the early years of doing this podcast, Called to Coach, and then starting Theme Thursday, we lived, even in the community, in the Name it -- I jokingly said, Name it, Name it and Name it. Like, we'd spend a lot of time naming. And that's, there's, I'm seeing big differences in our community of arriving to that point of application, of like, Hey, there's a purpose behind all that -- it's fun to name. It's fun, even sometimes to Claim it for yourself and say, Here's how I do this, and, right. But I am seeing some growth in our coaching community as well, or the community at large, this idea of actually applying it, right. And that's really the key in all this is that we, and so we've got to move past that at times and be like, OK, how do we, how do we actually get to the application? So I just wanted to publicly recognize -- I've seen this in our own, in our own strengths community, and we're getting really good at it. So for those listening, great job, but keep, keep the application bit going.

Dean Jones 8:59
Yeah, no, I think that's right. And, and I, it's not to take anything away -- you know, strengths is a very, CliftonStrengths is a positive, uplifting, team-building tool. It really is. And it's, it's one of those, and because it's so positive for people, and it's so constructive for people, and there's so, so much value to using it -- and I think we talked a little bit about that last time. It immediately helps individuals become more self-aware. Immediately, there's an impact on conversations that managers can have with employees around it. We also know that just by doing CliftonStrengths, just doing the assessment itself will improve somebody's engagement, you know. So we, we've, and we've measured it; we know that all those things happen. So there's lots of benefits that accrue from those first 2 phases, right -- Talent Identification, Talent Awareness. There's lots of benefits that accrue to, to managers who are using it in that way.

Dean Jones 9:53
I just think that there's a way, we don't want to stop there, right. And we want to, all the action, all the impact really is helping employees be able to apply their talents in meaningful ways. Some of the things that happen in that arena is where people can focus on their strengths and let go of nonstrengths or nontalents; where they can start to build strategies for being able to have reliable results; where, a, a big one is being able to regulate the expression of their strengths to be able to manage their, manage their weaknesses, right. So where their, they may be using their, their strengths in ways that are a barrier to them or to others' success, right.

Talent Application: 4 Techniques for Strengths-Based Managers

Dean Jones 10:34
So what I thought we'd do is talk a little bit today. You know, this is, so as I was thinking about this, as, as you get into this talent-application arena, to talk about, what are some of the techniques that strengths-based managers use in this talent-application arena, right? So if you said to me, OK, great, you know, there's lots of things I know to do, to be able to help people understand the 34 themes or the 4 domains. There's lots of things that I've, I've come up with to help my team and others be able to, to, to become more aware of strengths or to be able to accept strengths or to understand the manifestation of strengths of others on the team. Or if I'm a coach, it's like, look, I, I've got my whole arena of things that I do in those domains of Talent Identification and Talent Awareness, right.

Dean Jones 11:29
I find, sometimes, when I start to talk with coaches about Talent Application, they're a little flat-footed, you know. And they're like, OK, what, what exactly should I be coaching managers to do in that area? Right? Is it setting goals? Is it, is it setting goals with, with folks? You know, like, what exact, what's the work that I would do in that area to help people do that, right? So what I thought I'd do is share kind of 4 Techniques. I'm calling them techniques because I couldn't think of a better word to describe them, OK. But I'm calling them 4 Techniques that we know that strengths-based managers use in this area of Talent Application, right? Here's the 4 Techniques: One is coaching. One is having meaningful conversations. Another is job, something called job shaping, right. And the last is team building. So the 4 things I kind of want to talk about today, and these are all techniques that great, we would say great strengths-based managers use in this talent-application arena: coaching, meaningful conversations, job shaping and team building. So I want to spend some time talking about each one of these a little bit and kind of, kind of getting into it. And I thought, then, after we've talked about each one of these a little bit, we'll take a few questions today. Has, does that sound right, Jim?

Jim Collison 12:43
Yeah, that sounds great.

Technique 1: Coaching

Dean Jones 12:45
Great. So the first one is coaching. So it sounds funny to talk about, like, to introduce coaching as a technique to a bunch of coaches, right. And, but I want to talk about coaching, like, one of the, one thing we know is that all management is not coaching. It is very popular right now, and you see this in a lot of books, and, you know, for, to be able to say, hey, that managers should use a coaching approach. Right. And that they should use that, they actually should employ that as a technique. That is, I think, the right thing. You know, we've done a lot of work around that. I think we've been leading this in a lot of ways. This, this notion, this shift of managers moving from a sort of a hierarchical or a boss mentality to a coach mentality. So if you look at the work that we've done, and what we've published around this over the course of the last, really the last decade, we've really been helping managers to start to employ coaching as a technique around that, right?

Dean Jones 13:43
There is a difference between somebody -- and sometimes I think this gets confused -- there's a difference between somebody who's a professional coach, right, like my livelihood is that I coach people and that I'm a business coach or a professional coach, and somebody who's a manager, right? And sometimes people will say to us, Hey, we want to send all of our managers to the, the Gallup Strengths Coaching course. Well, the Strengths Coaching Course is really designed for people that are professional coaches; it's not so much designed for managers. We have other coaches, oh, excuse me, we have other courses that are designed to teach managers how to be effective as coaches, right. So, but this is a technique that we need, that we want, and that we see that really effective strengths-based managers use is being able to start to think about coaching, right?

Dean Jones 14:35
And coaching is different than feedback. You know, over the course of the last 10 years, there's been a lot written about feedback. There's a point where feedback got, got really, got really popular, when it was all about feedback, and particularly giving people hard feedback, like that. We know that there's a big difference between feedback and coaching. Feedback tends to be past-based, you know, and, and there's some question about how effective feedback really is. Coaching really is about shifting the context for people. So coaching is really how can we, how can we look at what you're doing? How can we shift the context? How can we provide something that's, to be able to look and say, What's missing from this that would enable you and equip and empower you to be successful next time? Right? So, whereas feedback tends to be -- I'm simplifying, right? -- but feedback tends to be mostly past-based, coaching tends to be future-based, right? It, you know, we know in great, great coaching, that it's future-oriented. It's focused and specific. It's designed to help people in a future-oriented way.

Dean Jones 15:41
And the goal really, simply, for a manager who's coaching people is to leave people empowered, right. And by empowered, I don't mean just confident, although confidence is part of it. It's that it leaves people empowered. It leaves people with the power to fulfill on their commitments. In other words, they know themselves as confident -- as competent, excuse me. They know themselves as competent as somebody who can make a promise and keep a promise in a particular area. So the goal, really, for managers coaching people is they're leaving people empowered, and that is with the power to fulfilling their commitments. So people know themselves as competent. They know themselves as somebody who can make a promise, who can say, "I am going to accomplish this," and then go keep that promise. Right? And oftentimes, when you're coaching people, that's what, you're, you're coaching around something where people have a loss of confidence or a loss of competence. Right. Right. And so they feel, they feel like they're incompetent, right; they feel like they're not able to be able to do that. And the coaching should restore that for people.

Dean Jones 16:44
You know, there's that, there's an old book that ATD published a number of years ago called Telling Ain't Training. And, you know, it's like, and it was, I always thought it was so funny, you know, Telling Ain't Training is a reasonably good book, you know. But I think that telling ain't coaching, either, right? And a lot of times where we get, what happens a lot of times with managers who are trying to employ, to, to use a coaching technique, to employ a coaching technique in the work that they do, is they get stuck, and they end up telling a lot, right? So part of it is helping managers to start to figure out, how do they, how do they successfully start to employ a coaching technique? This is an area where I think strengths coaches have the background and the training to really help managers to be better coaches. Right. So I think that in this area, being a trained strengths coach gives you an advantage, and particularly as your, around your effectiveness to be able to do that.

Dean Jones 17:48
One of the things that's a fundamental thing for managers, when they employ a coaching technique, is to start by being somebody who's good at asking great questions. Are you somebody that you're able to just ask great questions of people? Right? And, and, you know, what, what you find a lot of times is people are not, they're not asking great questions, right? Or they're not asking very many questions. I, one of the things in our Boss to Coach course for managers that we do is, is we give people a Conversation Guide -- it's a set of questions -- and ask them to go interview one of their employees in the course of, during the course. And I'll never forget, you know, and this is a set of questions about, you know, who they are, understanding who they are from a talent basis, from a strengths basis, relative to engagement, relative to what their goals and their motivations are, like that, right?

Dean Jones 18:42
I remember, you know, after we'd sent everybody off to go, to go do those interviews, and one guy came back, and he was a fairly senior guy, a fairly seasoned, seasoned guy who had been a leader for a long time. He came back into the room, in the course room, and said that he had, a guy he had worked with, I think, for like 20 years, he said he'd learned more about that person in the last hour than he had in the last 20 years. And it's just crazy, right? And, but it's a function of just being willing to ask great questions and really listen. And again, those are kind of core competencies of what strengths coaches are good at, to be able to be successful there. So I think this is where, as coaches, we can help managers to start to, to be effective in employing a coaching technique.

Jim Collison 19:33
Dean, let me bring a question from chat. As we're talking about Boss to Coach, I think, this is a good clarifying question. She says, Taralyn says, To clarify, the Boss to Coach course, is it for professionals coaching managers or for managers directly? Can you talk a, talk a little bit about that?

Dean Jones 19:50
Yeah, sorry. I'm talking fast, and I may have, may have, may have not communicated clearly. So yeah, our, our Gallup Global Strengths Coach course is designed for professional coaches, right? It's really designed for people that, that they're, they're doing coaching as a living, either inside of an organization or as an independent coach, right? Our Boss to Coach course is designed for managers. And it's really designed to teach them -- one, one aspect of the course is it's really designed to teach them how to be able to take, to employ a coaching approach in their work as a manager. So the Boss to Coach course is really organized around that. We offer those courses publicly; we offer those courses inside organizations; and it's really designed to help people to be able to make that transition. Right?

Dean Jones 20:40
One, one of the pieces I will tell you, you know, in, in using, in that course, is that a lot of managers will say, Hey, I'd love to be a coach. But I don't know how to be a coach. And it's not just that they don't know how to ask questions, or they don't know how to listen; it's, you know, or that they don't have what I would describe as feedback for people, right, or guidance for people. But there's things, there's, there's things that, I think for many of them, they don't, it's, it's how do I transition from the relationship I've got now with employees to a relationship that's a coaching relationship? It was one of the things that really surprised me, as we were developing the course years ago was that, that for a lot of, for a lot of managers, they said, Hey, I just don't have that kind of relationship, where I can coach the people that I manage. Which seems funny to me, right? But, but it's what was really prevalent. And part of it was that when I dug into it, right, it was that they just didn't have the relationship and the trust with the people they managed -- that those, that those people trusted them to coach them, right.

Dean Jones 21:49
So part of it is, is helping people, helping managers to be able to start to do that and start to build those kinds of relationships and build that kind of trust. And again, that starts really by, you know, the simple way to start to build that kind of relationship is just to be able to ask questions. Are you somebody that, you know, you can ask questions, you're good at about being able to ask questions and listen? You know? Something you were going to add to that, Jim?

Jim Collison 22:13
No, I was listening.

Dean Jones 22:14
OK, great. The other two things, I just want to mention around coaching, right, that I think are useful around this. We, you know, we could probably do a whole hour on this, but -- for managers. One is, I think, another technique that I think strengths coaches do and do well that they can help managers with, is being able to gauge readiness. You know, so coaches are really good at, good, and a lot of, a lot of great coaches do this just intuitively, is to be able to gauge what's somebody's readiness for the next level? What's somebody's readiness to take on the next challenge? What somebody's readiness around this, right? And where are they in their self-awareness? Where are they in their development? And to be able to gauge somebody's readiness. And I think it's one of the areas that I think strengths coaches can really help managers is, is to be able to gauge readiness, right? How, you know, one of the challenges for development is, hey, are you ready for the next thing? And how much do I give you? And how, you know, how much guidance do I give you? And how much do I let you experiment? And where are you, in terms of that? And I think that's an important piece. And I think that's, again, I think that's a piece that, that most strengths coaches are really adept at, and can help managers to be able to develop.

Dean Jones 23:31
Another piece that I think, here, that is important is, in the background is, is, is having, is, not just for the manager, but for the team is, starting to establish kind of a growth mindset, right, as opposed to a fixed mindset. This is the work of Carol Dweck, you know, where, talking about growth mindsets, I think it's super important. That you can't have, you can't have a manager who believes that people are fixed objects, like a chair, right? You know, there's no need for coaching, there's no need for development; you either got a good one, or you got a bad one. Right? That's the fixed mindset, right? In a growth mindset, you, you, you have that understanding and appreciation that we're all developing, and that we're all, that we're all growing. And that part of, by providing, you know, it starts, and we would say it starts with that raw talent, right? So we're investing into fertile soil. We're investing in an area where we know there's good talent, and it's going to yield a return. And at the same time, we know that, that we do need to make that investment, in order for somebody to grow and in order for somebody to continue to be able to develop.

Dean Jones 24:38
So I think that's, I think that's an important piece to, that the manager has that kind of mindset, and they're cultivating that kind of mindset on the team. That becomes then the background for coaching. Right? You know, that it's easier to coach when that's the, that's the background context for the whole thing. So I think that's the, the domain of coaching. I don't know if there were any questions you wanted to take, take there, Jim, or anything you wanted to --

Jim Collison 25:05
I have some questions coming in. I think I'm gonna hold some of them till the very end as we go. Keep going, keep going, Dean, and then I'll interrupt as necessary.

Technique 2: Meaningful Conversations

Dean Jones 25:14
OK, great. So yeah, again, I don't want to overdo this one, because I feel like I'm talking to a group of folks who know a lot about coaching. And so, and you get my point, right? This, the second technique that I would say is, is meaningful conversations. And this is something that's, that we're writing and thinking a lot about. I don't know, I'm hoping that you all are reading Culture Shock, or have read our Culture Shock book. But there's some great articles also on Gallup.com around this is, what we've discovered is the power of really having effective, meaningful conversations between managers and, and their employees, right. We know that, and I'm going to give you a little Gallup data here, we know that 80% of employees who say they've received meaningful feedback in the past week are fully engaged. And that's regardless of the number of days that they've worked in the office. Right now, all you see in the business press is everybody trying to get people back in the office, right. But more so than getting people back in the office, we know that 80% of the employees who say that they received meaningful feedback in the last week are fully engaged, right. And in fact, the boost from meaningful feedback is 4 times the lift in engagement from having the right number of days in the office. So we know that it's super, super powerful.

Dean Jones 26:37
The problem is, is that, you know, and we found this in a recent study, only 16, 16% said that the last conversation with their manager was extremely meaningful, right? So there's this, we know that when, when done correctly, those kinds of meaningful conversations are so powerful. But we know that, for the most part, managers are not able to execute on those in a way that they're having an impact on employees. So one of the things that we've shared, and you'll see this in, you'll see this, there's a great article on Gallup.com around this; it's also in Culture Shock. We know that there's four kinds of things that happen, there's four kind of characteristics of meaningful conversations.

Dean Jones 27:19
So in order to have a meaningful conversation, one is, one piece of it is recognition or appreciation for recent work. And we know that that's, by the way, of all these four that I'm going to list, they're in, they're in descending order, right. So, so recognition or appreciation for work, for recent work is the No. 1. And boy, I will tell you, just anecdotally, working with a number of different organizations and seeing their engagement results, that question around recognition is always a tough one, right? We found that 10% of employees are asked how they like to be recognized and appreciated. Only 10%, right. And only 23% of employees strongly agree that they get the right amount of recognition for the work that they do. So we know that, that recognition or, or appreciation for recent work is really important, and it's not happening nearly as much as it should.

Dean Jones 28:11
The second piece is collaboration and relationships, right? Are we, are we helping people to be able to collaborate more effectively? Are we helping people to, to create meaningful relationships in the office? We know that that's one of the things that helps with retention is when people are powerfully connected with each other. We've been writing for years about the importance of Best friends at work [item Q10 in Gallup's Q^12®]. So collaboration and relationships -- Are you helping people collaborate? Are you helping people build those meaningful relationships?

Dean Jones 28:39
The third piece is, is looking at and working on current goals and priorities at work. Right. So one of the things we saw in the last -- I don't know if you read this, but one of the things we've seen, seen in our data, is that, that question in our engagement data is Question No. Q01, I know what's expected of me at work, has started to dip. And so we know that that clarity of work expectations has been slipping, particularly for younger workers. So helping people know what's expected of work, helping people know what the priority is, helping people know what the goal is that we're pointing at -- super important. And particularly as people work remotely or that work in a hybrid environment, that, you know, there's not as many opportunities to be able to do that. So each one of those opportunities is super important to be able to clarify, yeah, this is what's expected. This is what we need to be doing. Right.

Dean Jones 29:32
And then the fourth one is, is, is a conversation about employees' strengths or what are the things that people do well? Is to re, it's an opportunity to really reinforce that. So again, the, the 4 things or the 4 characteristics of a meaningful conversation: recognition or appreciation for recent work; collaboration and, and relationships; current goals and priorities at work; and finally, employees' strengths or the things that they do well. Right. So we know that when managers have conversations like that on a regular basis, and we would say, we would recommend a weekly basis that they're having that kind of conversation, we know that, that, there's a, it creates a significant impact in terms of, of engagement in the office -- which, of course, is tied to all the great business, business outcomes that we know, when there's high engagement inside of an organization.

Dean Jones 30:27
Some, oftentimes, you'll get, what you'll get from managers at times is they're concerned about the time that it takes. And what we know is that more frequent touch-bases are better. And that typically, when you're doing this on a weekly basis, you can have a 15- or 30-minute conversation with somebody, and it's plenty of time for it to be really a meaningful conversation with someone. The problem is, is that, is that if it's not happening on a weekly basis, it takes a longer time to catch up. And so, and it does start to be burdensome around that. So super important. Right?

Dean Jones 31:04
What's interesting, the only other thing I'll say about this, I think, that is super interesting is, is the one conversation topic that employees perceive as less meaningful is discussing their weaknesses or what they didn't do well, right. Sometimes I think, and this goes back to feedback, sometimes I think managers think the way to develop people or the access to being a good coach is to talk about where you fumbled the ball. Right, you know? And, you know, is to talk about what are the, what are the weaknesses or what are the areas where, where you failed? Or like that. That, that, you know, it's, it's, it's, it's hard for managers to build trust, it's hard for them to deepen those relationships when every conversation is about what some, what doesn't work about somebody or what didn't work. So it's being able to really focus on the things that are working and what we, what, what the, what the employee or the associate should be doing more of, right, and to be able to make that work. Jim, you want to chime in here?

Jim Collison 32:03
Dean, I remember watching an old video with Don, Don Clifton saying that exact thing; saying like, I already know I made the mistake. I already know that didn't go well. I don't need that drilled into me, you know, again. And there, there is a difference between, I think, having these more difficult conversations and bringing some of that into it to say, Yeah, to recognize, I could have probably done better there. I think oftentimes, and I, and I know this is an area I probably really could work on in my managing, is the right amount of that to bring it to light, have a conversation, then move forward with it. Right. Right. Because we can't ignore it. It's like, it's like weaknesses, right? We don't ignore those, right?

Dean Jones 32:47
Yeah, nor should you, right? Yeah. Nor should you, right? So that stuff's going to come up in conversations -- problems, challenges, what didn't work, that stuff's going to come up, and that's appropriate to come up, right? A manager who ignores that kind of stuff, you know, is not, is not a great manager, right? And people would say, Hey, that person's out of touch. Right? And so, but the point is, are we spending, where are we putting our energy around that? We've got to account for that. And then we got to look and say, OK, what are we going to do next time? Or how are we going to, how are we going to, how are we going to improve, based on that? Right? So what, what happens next time around that? And specifically, what, how can we do that differently? You know.

Jim Collison 33:27
Yeah, John, John makes a good comment in chat. He says, The conversation about fumbles is an excellent place to use high-quality questions, right? I mean, to bring -- right?

Dean Jones 33:36
Yeah, that's right. Yeah, that's absolutely right. It's a great, you know, it's a great opportunity to be able to say, Hey, hey, what didn't work? What would you do next time? Right. And, and so, and where can you bring your talents and strengths around this? Right. One of the things that's, that's great about going in and investigating those fumbles, a lot of times what you see with people is they're not, they're either trying to be something they're not, or they're trying to use nontalents in a way that don't necessarily work. So as a strengths-based manager, it's really listening for, is this person trying to be something they're not? Or are we helping this person to be able to use their strengths in a way that's designed to really, to help them to be successful in those arenas? Make sense?

Jim Collison 34:22
Absolutely.

Technique 3: Job Shaping

Dean Jones 34:23
Great. So that's the, that was the second. The third one is something called job shaping. And this is something that we know that just great strengths-based managers use over time, as they're developing the employees that they manage. Job shaping is really starting, how you, through your understanding of a person's talents and strengths, how you start to shape the job around them. So we all know that the same, that different people in the same job do the job differently, right. You can have 10 different salespeople in a role; they're all going to do the role in a slightly different way. And a great manager will, we know that individualization is the hallmark of a great manager. That a great manager will look at each one of those 10 different people and see uniquely how they do the job. And instead of asking them to do it all the same way, will help them, using their unique talents and strengths, they, to use, to do the job in a way that really plays to their strengths. Right. So, and that really is job shaping over time.

Dean Jones 35:24
And the, the idea is, is that, you know, when I start a job at least 50% or 60% of the time, I'm using my strengths. And, and my manager's watching me do that. And in conversation with my manager, my manager starts to shape the job around me so that next year, it's 65% or 70% of my time is using my strengths. And the year after that, it's 70% or 75%, right? And it grows over time, so that I'm, the job really gets shaped around my unique talents and my unique strengths. Now, sometimes people hear that as, We're changing the job. No, we're not changing the job. So we're not, we're not changing the expectations for the role. We're not changing the standards for performance. All those things remain the same. We have the same expectations for performance; we've got the same standards around that. What we're doing is we're really looking at how you're doing the job, and how can we make sure that we're shaping that job, in the way that we set you up, we're shaping that job, so that you're really able to use your talents and strengths?

Dean Jones 36:24
Two things are going on there. One is we know that as individuals understand their talents and strengths and use their talents and strengths, they develop strategies for success. And we want to help people to develop those strategies for success. How, and part of it is, it goes back to the, John's comment a minute ago is, is how were we replaying the game film, talking about what worked, right, talking about what didn't work, and coming up with strategies over time that leverage our talents and strengths to be successful or more successful next time, right, around that.

Dean Jones 37:01
So the other thing that's happening is, is as a manager, so the employee is, is, is gaining ground, in terms of building those strategies. At the same time, the manager understands the talents and strengths of the individual, and they're starting to shape the job around them in the way that they assign projects, in the way that they foster collaboration with partners, right, in the way that they think about how to, how to coach and develop that individual person. So they're shaping the job around that person, so that over time, the majority of their time, they're using their talents and strengths, and, and, and the job is shaped around helping them to be able to perform at a very high level.

Dean Jones 37:40
One of the things we know about strengths-based development -- sometimes people think that, that, you know, particularly you see this when people are talking about sort of conventional approaches to development, sometimes people think that what happens is you get broader, right, and you're able to do more things and, and you broaden out. That's actually not the way it works. In strengths-based development, what we see is people get clearer and clearer about what they're great at. And they tend, they focus more and more on those things that they're great at. And when they're working in conjunction with their manager around that, then they can start to perform at a very high level. So when that's a conversation that's happening with my manager on an ongoing basis, I'm able to do that. So --

Jim Collison 38:27
Love that. Been the story of my career at Gallup, just to be honest, in a lot of ways -- getting, creating more and more narrow and more focused. Let's cover the last one, Dean.

Technique 4: Team Building

Dean Jones 38:35
Yeah, that's great. So the last one is team building. And, and, you know, so whereas job shaping tends to be an individual phenomenon, team building is what a strengths-based manager does to be able to create a high, highly productive, high-functioning team, right. And there's certain, we know, as we've studied the kind of qualities and characteristics that high-productive, high-functioning teams have -- strengths-based teams have -- there's certain things that we know are characteristics of those teams. One is they have a common purpose. So they've got clear and compelling performance goals and performance objectives. They know why they exist. They know what they exist to do. They're clear about what they're at work on and what their objectives are around that. Right. So common purpose is one of the things that we observe in those high-functioning teams.

Dean Jones 39:25
Team members, another thing is team members understand their individual and collective strengths and their performance gaps. So do they understand their own strengths? Do they understand their strengths as a team? Do they understand those areas where they have performance gaps, right? So there's that great awareness, that great shared awareness through the team, right? The third is that they've got a common language to be able to talk to each other about their talents, their strengths, their weaknesses, and to be able to talk around achieving those performance goals and those performance expectations. So they've got that shared language around that. And obviously CliftonStrengths is, is part of that language, I don't think it's limited to that. But they've got that shared language to be able to do that.

Dean Jones 40:08
The fourth thing is that they intentionally structure activities to maximize the team's talents. So they're thinking all the time, given, you know, they're clear about the purpose. They're clear about their individual and collective strengths. They've got the shared language, and they're using it, then, to be able to structure activities to maximize the team's talent. And there's a great you, you know, if you've ever been on a great collaborative team, there's this kind of honesty that is underneath it, to be able to say, Hey, you're really good at that; you're not so good at that, right? And we can all acknowledge that, because we're all working together, right? And we've all got a shared goal here. So there's that kind of intentional focus on, How do we structure the activities, in order to really maximize the team's talents.

Dean Jones 40:55
Another thing that we see in these highly productive, strengths-based teams, is they develop support systems and workarounds for gaps, right. So when they see gaps in strengths, when they see gaps in performance, they've either got a system for addressing it or they've got a workaround that they use to be able to address that gap. Right. Another thing is they're highly collaborative. And what you see is, in great, highly productive, strengths-based teams, lots, there's a, there's a complex network of relationships, lots of complementary partners, but the team itself is highly collaborative. There's not places, you know, when people don't collaborate, the work stops, right; there's barriers to getting the work done. So they're highly collaborative around that.

Dean Jones 41:40
And then finally, what you see is, in these highly productive teams, is they're a magnet for talent, is that you can see they're working well, they're collaborating well, people are energized because they're using their talents and strengths, and they're a magnet for talent. People want to be on that team. People want to work with them. Right? And particularly talented people want to work with them. Right. So in some of our work, and you probably have seen this, in some of our work, we've taken these characteristics, and we've boiled it down to what we call the 5 C's of Team Building. Right? And, excuse me, and these are the 5 C's we use a lot around this. Jim, I think you said that you talked about this a lot in Season 6 of Theme Thursday, right?

Dean Jones 42:22
But being Connected to a Common purpose; Communicate with everyone effectively; Collaborate to find the best methods to work together; and then Celebrate individual strengths and team successes, right? So those 5 C's: being Connected, Common, Communicate, Collaborate and Celebrate. Right? So, like that. So we boil all that down, so that's another technique that we know that strengths-based managers use, right, is that they're always thinking about team building. How do I facilitate that team building? How do I make sure there's clarity around the purpose? How do I make sure that we're all aware of each other's strengths and weaknesses? How am I reinforcing that common language? How am I helping the team to intentionally structure activities, so we're leveraging people's talents? How am I making sure that there's clear support systems and workarounds? How am I making sure that, that I'm fostering that kind of collaboration, and dealing with, with areas where there's not great partnerships or not great collaboration to be able to do that? Right.

Dean Jones 43:23
So, so just to, just to recap here, and then, Jim, I think we can go to some, go to some questions. But these are the 4 Techniques that we know. So when you, when managers say, OK, I want to, I want to make sure that my team is leveraging their strengths and applying their strengths at, at performance, these are the 4 Techniques that we know that strengths-based managers are using, right? So Coaching, one, they're using, they're adopting a coaching approach. They're actively building coaching relationships with their team. They're having meaningful conversations on a weekly basis. And those meaningful conversations include recognition for recent work, collaboration, focus on clear, clear, current goals and priorities, you know, setting expectations clearly, and then talking with employees about what they're doing well, and what their strengths are, right. The third thing is job shaping -- are they, how are they shaping the job around the person? And then the fourth is team building -- how are they working with the team as a whole, to build a culture on the team that leverages talents and leverages strengths?

Dean Jones 44:26
So those are the four things that, as strengths coaches, I would be working with managers around, right? Once, once those first pieces are in place, right, once the Talent Identification and the Talent Awareness stuff is in place, that's, that's where I would be focusing with, with managers is on those things.

Jim Collison 44:48
We do have a couple questions out in chat, and I'll bring those in. We've, we've been streaming on LinkedIn as well. So Mark jumped in via LinkedIn. He said, I think what would make this conversation incredibly valuable to him would be Dean draw out two or three examples of how you've empowered people to apply their talents in meaningful ways, with maybe a specific example or two. Can we, do we have time to do something like that? Can you think of?

Dean Jones 45:12
I'm horrible at thinking of examples at the moment! I'm like, it's just not my, it's just not my forte. it's a great question and a really valid question. It's, I'm horrible at thinking of examples in the moment.

Jim Collison 45:28
Well, tell you what. Let me, let's, let's, let me table that for a second, as your, your brain will start to work through some of that, and maybe something will come out in that. We'll go to John's question from LinkedIn as well. He says, inherently, there'll come a time when you may be the most talented in your group in a subject that you consider your weakest. How do you coach yourself through that?

Dean Jones 45:49
Come a time when you find, you may be the most talented in your group in a subject that you consider your weakness. How do you coach, coach yourself through that? Well, I mean, here, yeah, that's good. John, I think that, I don't think that's necessarily a management issue. Right. I don't think that's a strengths-based manager kind of issue; I think that's an individual kind of performance issue. Right. And so I think, you know, part of it is being able to say, if you're the strongest in a group in an area that you find that you're weak, you're weakest, it may be that you're, you may be in the wrong context; you may be on the wrong team. Right. You know, I'd probably have to know a lot more to be able to coach you through that one. Right. But I, you know, when I think about that, I don't know that necessarily, inside of that, I don't know that that's necessarily a question relative to being a to a strengths-based manager; it could be that, it could be a conversation that you need to have with your manager around that, you know. And so, like that.

Jim Collison 46:50
Yeah, I think oftentimes, and I see this where we get in, you know, we get into a bind, and we need to have an open conversation with that, with the individual that's managing us on that. And that's a, there's a lot of fear in that, right, of getting, getting -- because that trust, maybe that trust relationship hasn't been built to begin with. Right, these, some of these things haven't happened before. And that's got to happen in some ways. Ralph asks a great question. He says, Can you tell us a little bit more about coaching as a manager? Coaching tends to need openness -- we've been kind of referring to this -- and vulnerability, way past what I would ever do with my manager. Empowering the company by knowledge sharing? Any thoughts on that, Dean?

Dean Jones 47:32
Yeah, it's, that is really the challenge, I mean, Ralph, that goes to really the heart of the whole challenge with coaching as a manager is that it does require trust, and it requires a level of vulnerability. And you have to have a sufficient relationship with your manager to be able to do that. And your manager's got to be willing to have that kind of relationship with you. And that's really the challenge that you see with organizations is, as they think about, as they think about managers making the leap to being a coach is, is, Have they established that kind of relationship where their team trusts them that way. Right? And it's got to start, you've got to start by building that relationship. If you're not comfortable with that, that's indicative of, that you don't have that kind of relationship with your manager. So you can't open, to your point, you can't open up to be able to do that. And only when your manager has, has created that kind of relationship are you open to being coached in that way. Right.

Dean Jones 48:27
And that's really, but here's the thing that we see is, there's a shift in the expectations of the workforce that -- now, you know, I talk to our new hires at Gallup every week of my life, right. And one of the things, one of the reasons that they are coming to Gallup, one of the reasons that they are attracted to Gallup is to have a conversation with a, to be able to have a manager who's a coach like that, who knows them inside and out, that they can trust completely, and is going to, and is going to be able to coach them through stuff. So that's, that's just a super critical piece.

Tactical Ways to Increase Your Coaching Effectiveness

Jim Collison 49:00
Heather asks a great question. She says, Other than asking great questions, what, what tactically, as managers, to do to increase their coaching effectiveness? Other thoughts on that?

Dean Jones 49:11
Yeah. Listening.

Jim Collison 49:12
Did we cover that already? Did I bring that question up?

Dean Jones 49:16
No, we, no, we haven't done that question before. So yeah, Heather, it's a great question. I think the, it starts with, sort of the foundation thing is asking great questions, but then listening. And the challenge that you find sometimes is, is, and you see this with coaches as well, is they're listening for a particular answer, or they're listening through a particular lens. You know, you know, a lot of times, managers are listening to fix it. Right. As opposed to, as opposed to really that they're getting, that when they're listening to the answer, they're listing on a lot of levels. Being able to listen, not just for, for what's happening here, but what's the emotion around what's, what's happening here? And to be able to replay that back to somebody in a way that the person they're listening to gets that they really heard them. Right? So can, can you really listen, not just to what's happening, what the concern is, what the need is, but are you listening for the emotion behind it? Are you also listening for what's the developmental opportunity there? Right? So great managers, we know, when they're coaching, are not just listening to fix problems; they're listening to develop people. And so they're, they're listening in such a way that they're helping that person to really be able to develop, you know.

Jim Collison 50:27
We've been talking a lot about listening over the last year or two; it's been a really, really popular topic. Practically speaking, it's easy to say, much harder to do. For me, I got better at it because I practiced at it here. You know, one of the things early, early, early on, when we started doing this, you pulled a transcript of this, and measured how much the host was talking, and how much the guest was talking. And had this conversation like, Hmm, maybe we need to talk a little bit less. Right. And there are some tools. I mean, I think, if, you know, there are some transcription tools today -- otter.ai is one of those -- where you can actually feed the transcript in and get a percentage out of it, to say, how much was I talking, and how much was I listening? As we think of tips and techniques like that, Dean, of just being a better listener, what, what's worked for you? Or what have you heard that's worked for others about actually practicing it? Because I don't think it's, I don't think you could just decide to do it. I think you've got to practice it some, right.

Dean Jones 51:33
Yeah, I agree. I think, you know, one of the things that we, that we train our entry-level consultants at Gallup, is to, is that, just that simple, active listening technique of being able to say back to the person what they just said to you, right? It's, it's just that simple. You know, it's like an old technique from couples therapy, right? Where it's, can you just say back to the person what they said to you? And what's, what's astonishing is, is to be, to be, really be able to, to, when you can replay it back, it, it lands in such a way that the person either can say, "Yep, that's exactly what it is." Or they may say, "Yeah, it's all that and this." They may say, "No, that's not exactly it; it's really this," right. But, but that, that simple listening technique, I think, is a great starting point for managers is to be able to say, Hey, what I'm hearing you say is this, right? Or it sounds like that you're concerned about this, you're concerned about that, and that you're worried that this is going to happen. Right. So just being able to replay that back, I think, is really powerful, you know. Do you want to go, do you want to go back to his question about examples?

Jim Collison 52:40
Yeah.

Dean Jones 52:40
I want to make sure that we pick that up. I don't want to lose that question.

Jim Collison 52:43
Let me go back. Did you think of something?

Dean Jones 52:47
Yeah, like I could answer -- sorry, Mark, you're dealing with my, with my slow abilities here, right. So I can give you some examples around each one of them. I can give you some examples around each one of them. I think that's what you're looking for is to be able to say. So one, one is, I think, as you're working with managers is, one is, in the, in the coaching domain, is really having them shift to being able to work with people inside that coaching domain, right? A lot of times, what you see with managers around that is they're, they're spending a lot of time telling people, as opposed to a lot of time being able to really, to really coach people. And so, working with people in that arena, to be able to do that is super, is super important, right? You know, in the arena of meaningful conversations, this is a lot of what we've trained managers to be able to do is to be able to, to be able to have those kinds of meaningful conversations on a regular basis. And so that they're able to get in and start to, and to up the frequency around that.

Dean Jones 53:55
I can give you some examples of, of people that I've worked with directly around that, where just making sure you've got those touch-bases, and to be able to watch people develop. One of the things that I always do with my team, you know, is to really think about, OK, each week, what are the kinds of questions I need to be asking them? I'm also really cognizant that I'm making sure that I'm covering each of those four areas when I'm talking to them. You know, Is there good recognition with them? Am I supporting them and, you know, building self-efficacy around the relationships that they've got? Am I clarifying expectations and really talking about what they did well? I would say, at Gallup, you know, Jim and I, I think, are a product of job shaping. Right? You know.

Dean Jones 54:42
And there's many, many people at Gallup who would tell you, Hey, you know, that, that over time, as their manager understood them and started to work with them to start to shape the job around them, right, to be able to do that. And I think, with team building, it's kind of the same thing here. is to make sure that you're, are you, are you focused on those things that we know are, are most important -- that, those connections, that common purpose, the ability to communicate and the ability to collaborate. So I don't know if that was helpful.

Jim Collison 55:14
Well, and I think I'm, a, you know, you say, you and I in job shaping. I mean, your influence on me in this medium 10 years ago, when we got together -- to Mark's question, specifically -- I remember conversations you having with me to say, you know, Jim, you've got Woo^® and Communication^®. And you're gonna want to lead out in these conversations. And you're going to have everything to say about what they're saying, but you need to let them say it, right. I mean, this goes back to the, pulling the transcripts and measuring like, OK, who said what, and when, and how it's going. For me, early on, having that accountability and having someone else -- in this case, you're, you were, I saw you. You weren't, I wasn't, you weren't my direct manager, but you managed this process. And you said, you had the wisdom to say, OK, Jim, these strengths, they're going to work well for you. But you're going to tend to dominate. And so what, what are we going to do to measure that? How are we going to have this conversation? How am I going to teach you to listen? Right? Because that, as we think of some of these principles, you were, you were beginning to pour some of that into me, from a very positive light, knowing I could do this. I mean, when we got done with the first one, you were like, This is awesome! Let's do more! How are we gonna do more of these? Right?

Jim Collison 56:36
And so I think that's a, those are specific examples, Mark, from, from me, thinking about how Dean applied these principles of going through this, sitting down with me having these -- we had, we had two very -- I mean, I remember this -- two very long conversations before we did any of this, where you kind of coached me through this. Jim, I know you kind of know this. I know you kind of know this, and you're gonna be really good at it. But there's some things I need to make sure I've said to you that you know, going into this. So I think those are really, those are two really good examples, if you just think about the Woo and the Communication and me wanting to say things -- and it's paid off. I mean, it's been a benefit, right. But I think about those conversations every time I get on one of these webcasts. Is the guest getting more time than me? And am I listening in in a way that I can bring out the best of the guest? Right? And a lot of that's your influence on me. So, some, some --

Dean Jones 57:33
I also think, no, I was just gonna say, you know, to your point, Jim, you know, I was reflecting on some of the, some of those kinds of conversations I've had with people over the years, or that people have had with me, or that people ... be a certain loving directness with people about, you know, Here's what we know, are your talents and strengths are. And how do we start to shape this around that? Right. And so I think that's, I think that's a super important piece. So --

Jim Collison 57:59
I'm not going to go to a specific question, but, but Justin kind of alludes to this: When we say managers need to have individualization, does that mean they need to have the strength Individualization^®, or the small "i" individualization, as we think about, Every manager needs to be able to individualize. Can you, and we'll wrap it on that, but thoughts around that, Dean?

Dean Jones 58:02
Yeah, just the latter. We, it's not the, you know, certainly the talent theme Individualization helps, right? But it's, it's that, it's that approach, and we see it in great managers -- whether they have the talent theme Individualization or not -- is that they see each person uniquely. They're able to really look into each person in the, and, and understand these person's unique talents and strengths, and able to then, to think about, How am I going to uniquely work with that person, to develop them, to engage them, to manage their performance, in order to be successful?

Jim Collison 58:58
That's good. Dean, as we wrap this today, Part, Part 2 -- 2 hours of great learning for folks, if you want to go back and listen to it, we'll have it available, both as a podcast and on YouTube. Final thoughts, Dean?

Dean Jones 59:11
No, I hope this has been useful. I think part of what we want to do is to start to, I guess, two things. One is to start to unpack, What does it mean to be a strengths-based manager? What are the things, what are those kind of, what are those activities that strengths-based managers do? And I think in our last session, we were looking at some of the fundamental things that you wanted to have in place -- that understanding and awareness of your own talents and strengths; the understanding and awareness of the talents and strengths of others. You know, some of those fundamental things that you, that we wanted you to be able to do. This time, it's really, as we help managers move more into applying talents and strengths meaningfully and are helping their team to apply their talents and strengths meaningfully, What are some of the techniques or the activities that they can do in order to be able to be successful in doing that? And some, some, some places to work with them, so there's that.

Jim Collison 1:00:02
Well, on the way out, Heather says, This was great. Thank you for sharing this. Definitely going to have to develop a cheat sheet for managers -- unless one already exists. Dean, if you were thinking about the best resource, if you were going to point someone to the, you know, to it for this, what would you recommend?

Dean Jones 1:00:19
You know, gosh, you know, the thing that I, I guess if you're a manager, and you want to learn more about this, I think it's do our Boss to Coach course. I think that's really the best place. All the resources, all the, all the support is there. It's a great course for help, as a manager, to help, help managers to really become coaches, you know. And I would say, that's probably the best repository. The other two places I look is, there's just so much content on Gallup.com that's so rich. And so going to Gallup.com is useful. The other is Gallup Access. You know, Gallup Access just continues to evolve forward. And there's just so many powerful resources there. So if you're a Gallup Access subscriber, that's another place you can look for resources around this.

Jim Collison 1:01:05
Yeah, if you can log in -- my.gallup.com, upper left-hand corner. Hit the button, choose Resources. There's a search bar. Just put your query in, and there's a lot of information there that's available, including the future version of this webcast, plus all the other ones we've had Dean on. Just put "Dean Jones" in there; you'll get some amazing resources that are available on Gallup Access, as well as Gallup.com, as well. Well, we'll also remind individuals, for coaching, master coaching, or if you want to become a Gallup-Certified Strengths Coach -- Dean's talked about that a little bit here -- send us an email: coaching@gallup.com. And we'll get you some information back on how you get that done. We want to thank you for joining us today. You can get more, follow us on any social platform, and we got a great social team. So follow us on any social platform just by searching "CliftonStrengths." I'm not saying that because I sit by them, but they are a great, they are a great team, and I love being, I love hanging around them. Want to thank you for joining us today. Thanks for listening. Thanks for coming out. And with that, we'll say, Goodbye, everybody.

Dean Jones' Top 5 CliftonStrengths are Activator, Focus, Woo, Strategic and Relator.

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