Creating Flow in Your Coaching Business

Gallup Called to Coach Webcast Series -- Season 10, Episode 40.

Below are audio and video plus a transcript of the conversation, including time stamps.

"The flow state is ... described as a feeling where, under the right conditions, you're fully immersed in whatever you're doing. You're energized. You instinctively know what to do next. You can't wait to do it. You're getting to use your strengths. You feel like you're at your best." Gallup-Certified Strengths Coach Murray Guest has experienced flow and wants coaches and others to experience it -- frequently -- as well. Coaches who are fostering flow in their coaching practice can increase their impact in today's environment of burnout among managers and disengagement among employees. But what does a focus on flow look like for coaches? What questions should you be asking yourself in order to promote greater flow in your work and life? How can your work environment play a role in your regular experience of flow? And how can you coach others as they seek to move from burnout or disengagement to flow? Murray has answers to these questions, and he shares additional insights from 8 years of coaching. Join us. 

On a weekly basis ... take time out and think about what's working, what's not. When are you in that state of flow in this past week, what can you learn from that and apply it to the following week?

Murray Guest, 9:59

As coaches ... we can feel like we're the ones driving the process. ... But actually, we need people that we're coaching ... to own their own development and to be driving it.

Murray Guest, 39:19

If you are helping people ... whether it's with an organization or your own coaching business, look to apply in your own life what you're helping people with. ... It might seem obvious, ... but ... it makes a huge difference.

Murray Guest, 54:41

Jim Collison 0:00
I am Jim Collison, and this is Gallup's Called to Coach, recorded on October 7, 2022.

Meet Our Guest on This Episode

Jim Collison 0:18
Called to Coach is a resource for those who will help others discover and use their strengths. We have Gallup experts and independent strengths coaches share tactics, insights and strategies to help coaches maximize the talent of individuals, teams and organizations around the world. If you're listening live, love to have you join us in our chat room. If you don't see the chat room, there's a link right above me there. It'll take you to the YouTube instance. Sign in and join us in chat. Love to know where you're listening from or take your questions later on in the program live. If you're listening after the fact and you have questions, you can always send us an email: coaching@gallup.com. Don't forget to subscribe to Called to Coach on your favorite podcast app or right over there on YouTube, so you never miss an episode. Murray Guest is my guest today. He's a Gallup-Certified Strengths Coach with 8 years of experience, and he shares insights and tips -- and a bunch of tips today; we're excited to hear those -- to create more flow in your business. He's one of Australia's leading Gallup-Certified Strengths Coaches. Over the past 7 years, he's helped over 4,500 people unlock and apply their strengths to achieve their professional and personal goals. He partners with leaders to build strengths-based cultures and realize the benefits of a strengths-based approach. And Muzz, always great to have you. Thanks for the extra practice. Welcome back!

Murray Guest 1:30
Thank you, Jim! So great to be spending my Friday morning with you. I can think of no better way to finish the week. It's great to be chatting with you. And as always, thank you for the opportunity to connect and have a chat.

Jim Collison 1:44
Muzz, I always enjoy our time together. But we want to get to know you a little bit. Maybe not everybody knows you. And so when you meet people, or people ask, "Hey, what do you do?" What do you tell them? Give us the short version of that.

Murray Guest 1:56
So the short version is I love to work with leaders that want to make a difference, that are focused on developing the engagement of their teams through changing attitudes, developing their leaders and building a strengths-based approach. I work with a whole range of different companies in different industries. So I'm not focused on industry. So currently working with construction, power, finance, pharmaceutical, manufacturing. But for me, it is about the leaders. It's that real connection with a leader that wants to make a difference, whether that's a leader of a team or a CEO of a company. And it links really well to our conversation today about flow. When I reflect back over the last 8 years, when I've partnered with a leader, and I'm like, they're just doing this because they think it's a good idea or they're ticking the box or it's a bit of training, I realized that wasn't the right choice for me. And it's really those partnerships, and some of my partnerships now been going for 3 or 4 years, which I love.

The Manager and Burnout

Jim Collison 2:53
We're going to talk about flow here in a second. But I want to reflect back on the last couple years. As we think about, you know, you focus on leaders and managers. It was right before the pandemic we released It's the Manager. We spent the entire pandemic talking about how to support leaders and managers. We produced a new Manager Report; we have a new Leader Report that's coming here just in a couple of weeks. How is the state of the leaders you're working with? How is the state of them right now, in your opinion, if you were to kind of give a general -- and I'm asking you to be, to generalize some things, but how's the state of the manager in the managers you're working with?

Murray Guest 3:32
I would say the thing that pops out straight away is burnout. Tired, sick of online Teams and Zoom meetings. I've had many managers say, "Can we just catch up on the phone? Can we just, like, can we get back to meeting face to face? And I feel like there's a lot of those themes, because of the busyness and the juggling of, Are we restricted? Are we not? Can we go out? Can we not? Are we working from home? Are we not? And we've still got to deliver on projects. And so I feel like there's that theme. And then what the best managers are doing is having those conversations around, What does it really mean for us right now? What are the priorities? And what's not?

Murray Guest 4:15
And I still remember one of the leaders I worked with a year ago; we were running a workshop and, well, at, towards the back end, we're talking about What does success look like for the upcoming 12 months? And I said, "OK, and what's a stretch goal?" And she stopped me. And she said, "Murray, actually I don't care about stretch goals right now. All I care about is that my people are well and safe. And let's just focus on that." And they're the type of leaders I love to work with. Because it is just remembering, we're actually talking about humans, talking about people that have got a lot to deal with right now. So I feel like the best leaders are doing that. And they're remembering that, with, unfortunately, this theme of we've just been so busy juggling so many needs, whether that's personally and professionally.

Jim Collison 5:03
Yeah, you mentioned the burnout. And I almost feel like we need a collective vacation. Like everybody needs to go on vacation at the same time, because you can't, we came back to an environment, whether you, you know, whether you had to go stay at home or whether you continued to work on site. And, and we all kind of came back. And, you know, I know a lot of folks who've spent some time away over the last couple of months, whatever that is -- summer here in the United States; winter down there in Australia. But it feels like the pace has picked up for everybody. I hear across the board, just like, Oh my gosh, this is, it's unbelievable how busy I am, right, in this space. And so it would be nice if we use all collectively stopped for a second, take a 2-week vacation for everybody. Because it's hard to get, you know, you go away and you feel back. What kind of advice are you giving to leaders and managers who are in that area of, of burnout and our thinking like, how do they get their wellbeing back on track? What kind of, what are you finding is working, knowing we can't just all take a collective 2-week vacation?

Murray Guest 6:15
Yeah, so I love the concept, obviously, that [Don] Clifton talks about around filling your bucket, and the book, Fill Your Bucket and putting drops in your bucket. And we can get those drops from other people, but also how are you filling up your own bucket? And I think it's getting clear around the little things that are powerful for you and impactful for you in filling your own bucket. And what I know what has worked for me in running my business and what I talk to managers about is, don't wait for the 2 weeks. I even had someone the other day, Jim, say, "Oh, you know what, I can't wait till January, when I take 3 weeks off." And I'm like, "Well, what are you doing between now and then?"

Murray Guest 6:56
And it's, I think it's all those little things we can do along the way, which is, Can you finish work a bit early today? Can you walk the dog in the morning? Can you make sure you get to that, that class and hang out with those people that are important to you, those social connections? And so I believe it's all the little things that add up. And I think also for managers, it's that realization that it is different for each person. And so it's not the Great Resignation, it's the great realignment about realigning what's important for you and for the people you lead, and then sorting that out.

Defining Flow

Jim Collison 7:32
Think it's good to lead by example. And a lot of our coaches that are out there, you have to lead in that way. We want to spend a little time in the title of this, had this idea of flow, right, and getting into flow. And of course, I think flow is also kind of a key to this burnout concept. It's, it's, life's a little bit easier when you're in flow, when you're working in flow. So before we start with that concept, what is flow. When you say that, Muzz, what do you mean by, by having business flow?

Murray Guest 8:02
Yeah, so I'm certainly not the expert in flow, but I know how important it is for me. And if I think about the times over the last 8 years when I've been in flow and what that's meant for me and my energy and my success, and when I haven't been in it. And I actually feel like when I haven't, I've been an employee to myself; it's like Murray Guest working for Murray Guest. I'm like, Hang on! I thought I was the boss. What's going on? No, I've got to go and do this thing, versus I have the choice to go and do it. And so that's when I'm not.

Murray Guest 8:33
But the flow state is definitely described as a feeling where, under the right conditions, you're fully immersed in whatever you're doing. You're energized. You instinctively know what to do next. You can't wait to do it. You're getting to use your strengths. You feel like you're at your best. And for me, I feel like it's about how do we create more of that as coaches and as, as people in our lives, because that's infectious for not just us, but those people around us. And I love the continual focus that it brings in my life. When I think about, What does that look like? How do I keep doing that? And bringing that, that flow state and really being in the zone.

What Does Flow Look Like for Coaches?

Jim Collison 9:15
For coaches, and I want to talk to coaches about this, in this, kind of in this topic. And it's great to kind of think about how as coaches, we can help our leaders, but I think we can't take people places we haven't been before. So let's think about flow for coaches. What could that look like for them? Or what kind of advice would you -- cause for everybody, it's a little bit different, right? So thinking about, What are the things they might want to be looking for, to see what are the things that put me in that flow state?

Murray Guest 9:45
Well, one of the things which I got introduced to back when I was a manager in my life before running this business, and was taking time out to review myself as a leader on a weekly basis. And it was so powerful. And I share it with a lot of the managers I work with, which is take time out and think about what's working, what's not. When are you in that state of flow in this past week, what can you learn from that and apply it to the following week? I even build on that now, as I have over the past 8 years: When am I getting to use my strengths? And how can I aim them in the coming week? And so I'd say the first thing is the self-awareness. And so as a coach, take that time out on a weekly basis, like a football team does. Not that mine's winning at the moment, Jim; I hope yours is going well.

Jim Collison 10:36
We're doing OK. We're, we call it soccer. But OK, keep going.

Murray Guest 10:39
But taking out that time on a weekly basis, like a high-performing team should, and treat yourself like that high-performing team in that reflection, and then planning forward around, What was that week like? When was I in flow? When was I not? And then how do I apply that to the following week? So without that self-awareness and that review, you just don't know. So that's the first thing. I think you've got to build that awareness. And as we know, it's going to be unique for each person. So that's the first thing.

Murray Guest 11:12
And the second thing is, I would actually say, Be strengths-based in your approach as a coach. I've heard lots of coaches talk about, I'm doing my bookkeeping; I'm doing my finance; I'm doing my website; and then I'm doing this and then I'm doing that. And I'm not saying, Don't do all that if you love to do it, and you get in the zone doing that. However, let's be honest: that is not a true strengths-based approach. Where do your strengths lie? Where do your skills lie? And how can you really be a bit more, honestly, a bit more, let's say, brutal about that and saying, right, I'm good at this. I'm going to focus on that. And who can I partner with? Who can help me to do those other things? And it's some of the biggest shifts that have helped me to then make sure I'm creating more of that time to get in that flow state.

Jim Collison 12:04
Catherine in the chat says, Today, I felt flow. First time in a long time. Protecting my calendar was a great way to give myself some time -- like what you just said, Muzz -- to think and honor my Achiever, for that. Let's think -- for you, then, can you give me, for you, some examples? Like, how do you know when you're in flow?

Murray Guest 12:25
Yeah, so I would say, so I have Responsibility No. 5. And when I look at my to-do list, and I'm inspired by my to-do list, so for that Responsibility, that psychological ownership and that integrity of doing what I say I will. If I look at my to-do list for the clients I'm working with, and I'm like, Yes, I'm so glad I'm doing that. Yes, I want to tick that off. Yes, that's, that's, I want to do more of that. Now I'm in the flow state. If I look at my to-do list, and I'm like, Oh, why am I doing that? Why did I say "Yes" to that? And, and, and oh my god, I forgot to do that as well. That is a great indicator for me, am I in that, that flow state? The other, if we go to the very top, Relator No. 1, which is the best strength in the world; let's be honest.

Jim Collison 13:15
Those could be fighting words, because you know I think Woo is the best.

Murray Guest 13:20
But, and in all seriousness, my Relator, if I don't feel like I've got that Relator being met with the clients I'm working with, if I don't have that connection, if I don't feel like we're on the same page, we've got that trusted, deep connection, that's, that's a bit of a flag for me. Like, Hang on, this is not the right fit. So it's then, for me, looking at the relationships and the work I'm doing, that's a great indicator of if I'm in that flow state or not.

Jim Collison 13:49
Had an experience this weekend where I redid, so Arranger-Maximizer kind of Activator, on the fly I redid -- I have a whole, a computer area that's got all my computers and stuff. And I kind of, I just tore it down and put it all back together. As a kid I used to do this; I'd tear apart my room -- to clean it up, I'd tear it apart and then put it back together. I loved to rearrange, organize. And for me, it's not, it's not a discipline; it's a potential. It's what things could be potentially in the new setup. I get excited. I get, I can feel myself getting excited about future potential of things.

Jim Collison 14:26
Now, I rarely actually get it there. But the process for me of getting, of getting out there is the flow. Hours flew by. I was like, Oh man, I gotta go. Shoot. I wish I had more time to get. And then I remember, at one point during the weekend, I just came down there, and I just stared at it. And just staring at what I had done kind of put me back in that flow state, kind of put me, made me feel, just gave me this incredible feeling of satisfaction. And maybe that's a word I've never really thought about in a flow state, but maybe deep satisfaction is one of those things. Can you, Murray, respond to that. Any, any thoughts about finding that satisfaction of being an indicator of flow?

Murray Guest 15:13
I love that. So I think there's something about those two words together: "deep satisfaction." And when I, in my reflection of, again, as a coach and facilitator working with leaders and teams, and I think about the work of the partnership and what we've covered in that partnership, whether it's an online session or face to face or coaching, because it's a program that covers all those, do I feel that deep satisfaction in what we're doing? Or do I feel like it was just a bit of training, for example? And so for me, if -- because I feel like the whole idea of Called to Coach, Jim, I wasn't like, Hey, I became a coach; it was like, Oh, I'm just validating what I was all along anyway.

Murray Guest 16:02
So, and so, therefore, that deep satisfaction really comes when I'm like, OK, we got to the place we wanted to get to. And it was a true partnership. And so then I then leave the session, or leave the program, whatever length it was, with more energy than when I started it. And so then that gives me more energy to then do more of that. And so I say, that's where that real deep satisfaction comes from.

Murray Guest 16:34
I'll give you a quick example. So I ran a program, a 2-day leadership program recently for a client. And I get this phone call 3 days later. And I didn't recognize the number. And I answered that. And this gentleman said, "I just wanted to call you, Murray, because I just had this realization." And he told me his name. And I had to try and remember which one it was -- there was 24 people in this program. And he then says, "I just want to let you know that we covered a lot. I don't remember a lot of it. But what I do remember -- " And I'm, OK, where's this going? And then he says, "I realized when I got home, I was having a conversation with my 10-year-old son, and I've been blaming him for our relationship and realized it was all my fault. And how I've been showing up for him in these conversations, I haven't been curious. I haven't been asking questions. I wasn't thinking about what I was bringing. And I realized, if I just changed that, we'd have a better relationship.

Murray Guest 17:33
And so I was getting this at 4:00 on a Friday. And I thought, you know, that, that's what it's all about. If this participant is now thinking about how he's going to show up as a better parent, not just as a better leader in his team, I went, Wow, that's just made my day. And so then I got that deep satisfaction.

Jim Collison 17:53
Yeah, that, hard, like you're like, oh, it's Friday! Like, could it be Monday? Like, can we, can we do this again, you know, to get -- ?

Murray Guest 18:03
Can you ring me back again next Monday?

Jim Collison 18:06
Could just call me and, you know, I often get into flow during Called to Coach. Like, it's been one of the secrets of this is we get, you know, we get going, and I look at the clock, and I'm like, Oh, no! Like, we haven't covered, you know, what I wanted to cover or whatever. And it is, it's been interesting -- I just got some feedback today from one of our, from, from one of the folks at Gallup. I'd gone in, and she said, You know, I listen to Called to Coach every morning on the way in. She's, you know, one of our sales folks. And, and then she's like, And then one time you said -- and it was like one of those moments, you're like, Oh, my God, they're actually listening! This is kind of scary. You know, Steve, Steve brings up an interesting point. He says, I love it when my clients are also in flow with me. Our sessions fly by seemingly in the blink of an eye. How important is it that, that, especially in the coaching, that that flow may come at the same time? Have you had that experience? And any thoughts on that?

Murray Guest 19:06
I love Steve's comment. And I totally am in alignment with that, and I'm thinking about the analogy here of, you know, rivers combining, you know, integrating, flowing side by side, and then they flow together. And if we're, we're working with clients, and they're in that flow state through change, through their own cultural journey, and they're energized, I totally am in line with Steve on that. And I feel that. Because then you feel that, and it's infectious. So we're working together, it's a real partnership. And for me, it's where a lot of the programs I run, there's a real focus on the foundations at the start around our attitude. And so what's the attitude we're bringing to the work we do? Because if we're not focusing on that, and then we just jump into, Hey, what are your strengths? And get to know those and why strengths? But let's actually talk about how we're showing up, day in, day out to then create that foundation.

One-Degree Shifts: Moving Back Into Flow When You're Suffering or Disengaged

Jim Collison 20:09
So let's have an honest conversation for a second around this. Can you be, like, oftentimes, we often say it's hard to be an engaged employee when you're suffering in some way. And that can be, there's a variety of ways of where that suffering. Can, can you find flow when you're in the same state? If you're in a suffering state in some way, whether that be in any of the elements of wellbeing, so to speak, can that affect flow? And if we're there, you know, can that stop it from happening?

Murray Guest 20:39
So first thing to say is I'm not a psychologist.

Jim Collison 20:44
Did you stay at a Holiday Inn Express last night? No, it's OK, you can, you could do that.

Murray Guest 20:50
So I'm not a psychologist, and, but I love understanding and working with people. And so from my experience around this is the suffering could come from a whole range of areas. And yes, there's people that are parts of cultures or working for leaders where they don't feel the opportunity to get into flow, because of the environment, the culture, the relationship with their manager. And we know how important that is. So for me, it is then helping that person focus back on what's in their control. Because quite often, we're focusing, or that person's focusing on what's out of their control and, you know, below the line or that blame in identifying what they can't do versus what can I do, and what's in my control that I could then take action on? And again, the little shifts -- the small, one-degree shifts that make a huge difference. And they all add up.

Murray Guest 21:49
And the analogy I've used a stack of times, Jim, is if we're in Sydney, you and I, and we're going to fly to LAX and the pilot takes off, but every hour, he just shifts that a little bit, a little bit of a one-degree shift, we're going to land somewhere completely different. And so there's one-degree shifts around, well, what can I do, then, which land me in a different place, whether that's in that culture where I don't feel engaged and I'm suffering, or the one-degree shifts that I can do as a coach, which land me in a different place, all add up. That said, I've also had some very brutal conversations with some people I've been coaching, where it's like, you've got three choices. You either need to have a conversation with your manager and sort this out; you need to live with it as it is; or you need to leave. So which path you're going to go down? Oh, I don't want to leave. OK, well, then, I don't do nothing. OK. So what's the conversation need to have with your manager around the challenges you've got? And how are you going to move that forward?

Jim Collison 22:50
I think that's, that's really good advice. We often say, for managers ask, you know, if they're managing folks, ask them, "What's the best recognition you ever had?" Marina kind of has a spin on that with flow. She says, I feel that for every client, there's something else that gets them into, in the flow mode. And this is one of the things I explore and tune myself in our first sessions. Is that a question -- do you ask that early? Do you, do you spend some time? Talk a little bit about that.

Murray Guest 23:19
So fun fact, Jim, I asked that question, and one of the photos I have on the slide in my presentation is me presenting at the CliftonStrengths Summit. You know, when we used to do that face-to-face, that thing?

Jim Collison 23:31
In person, you mean, we, did we ever do it in person? I can't remember that far back!

Murray Guest 23:35
We did for 4 years, Jim. But honestly, I use a photo of me presenting at one of the breakout sessions in the Summit. And I say, Hey, this is me when I'm in flow. And I frame it up, saying yes, I get nervous. And yes, I get worried because it's important to me. But also I know when I'm doing it, it is just, I'm, the time's flying by. I'm energized. I'm connecting. I'm doing what I was meant to do. And here's my example. And then I get people to explore what's their example, in their workplace in their life? And then we link to, well, what strengths do you think are at play in your, your dominant talents? And that then generates some really good connection back to how we can be at our best going forward.

Flow and Impostor Syndrome

Jim Collison 24:17
Do you think impostor syndrome can play in? I find sometimes when I get into flow, and I'm real, I mean, I'm just really feeling it, it feels good. I'm going with it. When that, when that time is over, and I'm kind of coming back, I kind of look back at "flow self" and I'm like, That wasn't me. What, why did I do it that way? Why, you know, do you ever find or do you ever get any feedback from clients that there's a little bit of maybe that impostor syndrome after a heavy moment of being in that flow?

Murray Guest 24:48
Yeah, I'm wondering about the notion of healthy impostor syndrome. Of, there's that, yes, I was in flow, and how was that perceived? Or how was I showing up? And was I still being genuinely myself? And unfortunately, a lot of people and managers feel that -- I'm now in a manager position. And should I be here? Is this, am I ready for this? Do I bring what this role needs? And I don't feel like I own my seat at the table. And so turning that around to actually say, Well, how do you? Why do you? Why, why is this, you know, part of your leadership journey that you definitely deserve? And let's explore that. But yeah, I've had some of those conversations. I think, I'd say it's more in the one-on-one sessions versus a group coaching session.

Jim Collison 25:37
Yeah, I think it's in a spot where you could be a little more, more vulnerable, you know. Steve says he's had a lot of experience with clients feeling some impostor syndrome in the past couple years. It usually occurs when they become disconnected from their strengths zone. But I like the spin on it, like I like the spin you put on it, where it's like, there may be a positive reflection on that "zone" moment. You did some incredible things in it. And that may actually be an indicator that you are in flow. Like if you're feeling those like, Whoa, what was that all about? Having that thought may be an indicator that you were in a moment. You know, you were in one of those moments, right?

Murray Guest 26:16
Yeah. So I definitely link to what Steve's saying. But thanks, Jim, for your comment, because I feel like anytime that we can reflect back and we can own what went well is a strengths-based approach, but also own those areas where we can do things better, we show up more authentically. You know, when our strengths may have been a bit raw, getting in the way, they can show up as well, and it's in that flow state, unfortunately. But let's, let's, actually, let's link back to my point at the start about those review points in our life, because, and how powerful they are.

Flow, Clarity and Business Success

Jim Collison 26:51
Yeah. I, I just remember, I've had some really amazing moments where I know I've been in flow, and I come out of them, and I'm a little, it's a little disconcerting. I feel a little, like, and maybe that's just an overwhelming feeling, being in that moment. And how I reflect on that makes as much of a difference of how I view that experience as, as anything. If I come out of, I can think about it very negatively. Or I can come out of it very positively. And I think maybe I've had more success in the last 4 or 5 years coming out of that positively. Saying, No, no, no, no, I did do that. That was OK. That was pretty cool. No, I did have an impact, right, thinking through all those things. Right. Yeah. So any other, any other, as we think about flow and what you, the way people work in their business in that way, How can they turn that into success? Or what kind of advice would you have on turning some of that into success in their business or helping them with their business?

Murray Guest 27:57
So a lot of clients that I've worked with, I'd say it's a very common theme, Jim, is the lack of clarity and the impact that makes. And that lack of clarity causes a whole range of emotions, from frustration, stress, anguish -- anger, even. And then, of course, the, the output of not being aligned, misaligned, needing rework and a whole range of things. And so what I have, have definitely embraced more and more over the last 8 years is, Where am I getting clarity in my own life and the way I'm running my business? And, and how that looks for me, personally, is a weekly meeting with my wife. And sometimes, that's playing backgammon. And I lose every time, and that's OK. She's very good. And we're, but we're chatting. Or it's during the week, whenever it might be. But for us, it's definitely about, just like a client, a team, a manager has regular meetings with their team, let's have that regular meeting as a family. And in that meeting, let's get clear about what I'm doing. What's coming up. What's my wife doing? What are the kids doing?

Murray Guest 29:17
And to quote Jim Krieger, ex-CFO of Gallup -- we talked about this, Jim -- it's all about thinking beyond Friday night. Don't just think, Oh, what have we got this week? Or what are we doing on Friday night? What are we doing for dinner? But where am I traveling? Who needs the quiet time in the house because, you know, they're doing something online? Or, Hey, you need to be off the WiFi. Because as much as the WiFi is good, it can still get stressed. Or if we're traveling and there's kids, about that clarity. Let's just get really clear. And, I mean, the quote from Brene Brown comes to mind, which is, "Clarity is kindness." So let's get clear on that. Where are we going? Which then enables the flow. Because without that, it gets bumpy and messy and, and Jim, I'm going to say I'm far from perfect on this. We just had to recently reschedule an appointment for one of the kids, because my wife's like, I'm here. And I'm like, Yeah, I'm going there. Hang on a minute, we booked this appointment. And I'm like, Ah, that's right. We didn't quite cover that in our catch-up. But that clarity is super, super important.

Jim Collison 30:24
Yeah, and I really agree with you. You know, our Q01 question on our Q^12® assessment -- Q01, I know what's expected of me. And I, that has such a universal, I think, both understanding going into a role, going into maybe into your business as a coach. And I think some young -- young not in age, but young in just starting -- they need to ask them, themselves the questions: Do I, as a coach, do I know what's expected of me in this? I think they get all hyped up about doing the job, but, but thinking through the expectations, getting clarity, what have you learned in that? Like, what kinds of questions should you be asking yourself about getting clarity around your expectations in that? You kind of, you mentioned that communication with your spouse, right, your partner. What else have you learned? What, what other areas do you think you can get clarity on or you can get those expectations set around?

Murray Guest 31:22
Yeah, and sorry, good point. Tammy is my wife. I didn't mention. Important, important bit of data there.

Jim Collison 31:28
Yeah, no, it's good.

Murray Guest 31:31
Well, I think one is the, like I mentioned, the, the travel. I would say, secondly is planning out those events that we've got coming up. I would say also, when our energy is going to be up or down. Another one is, When do you have the energy for you typically during the day for the deep thinking and the shallow thinking? And this is something which I have learned for me -- definitely it's more in the morning for that deep thinking, whereas end of the day, at nighttime, don't come to me to solve a problem or do a number crunch or something on Excel, because I just don't have that mental capacity. It's just not the way my body works. And I think getting clarity about what that looks for you and also for the managers you work with and for your, your partner. And then where's that energy lie best for you during the day? And then how do you work with each other on that?

Murray Guest 32:33
The next one, I would say is, around this clarities piece, is getting really clear about what you're getting, honestly, Jim, what you're getting paid to do with your clients. What is that partnership? What is it about? And quite often on projects within organizations, I talk about scope creep. It's like, Oh, we're going to do this in this project. And now it's this and this and this, and it's getting bigger. And it can happen to us as coaches. And I think early on, in my excitement to do some work with a client, I say "Yes, yes, yes." But I wasn't clear on what that yes, yes, yes, looks like. But getting really clear around, Well, what are we trying to achieve? What are those outcomes? What has the team done before? What other development have they recently done? And then also, let's get really clear on those outcomes over this program. And check in on that. So there's a couple of things there.

Jim Collison 33:26
I love the, the expectations back to the customer in some ways of saying now, let's be really clear about what are we looking for here? Where are we looking to go? What are we looking to do? What's, what's a, what's an acceptable outcome? I think sometimes you're right -- we get started on these things. And as a, as a, you know, as a young student, and even in my early 20s, high Activator, high Maximizer -- and anything worth doing is worth overdoing -- I would just get started. Like somebody, Hey, OK. Ooh, shoot out the door, like, and they're like, Where are you going? Like, you don't even know where you're going yet! And I'm like, I know. But I'm excited about it. Right. And I think, and I don't want to, I don't want to talk down any of that excitement, because we need some of that. Right. But getting the opportunity, like you say, to get some clarity on that -- to kind of think like, and I think getting those expectations back. What's a win? Like, What's, what satisfaction for you? What helps you in this? I don't know if we ask enough of those questions. As you're thinking about your clients, do you ask -- do you try to front-load this with some of those questions, just so you're clear?

Murray Guest 34:39
Yeah, definitely front-load them, and so, whether that's through a short online survey or a conversation or a combination of both. The other step in the process is I often get the team members to complete a short online survey. So we're getting the manager's perspective, but also the team members' perspective. The other thing is definitely getting the managers to complete their strengths early in the process, because then I'm getting an understanding about where they're seeing the world and their team and what's going on for them through a lens of their own strengths, and how they're showing up. And I think when I've done that partnership really well, it's like, Ah, so my Relator's seeing this or some of my top strengths are seeing it this way. And now I can see where yours are showing up and, and where they're being met or not met and, and that lens that that's bringing as well. And back on the spouse thing. And, and because a lot of coaches, let's be honest, are solo entrepreneurs running the business from home. Knowing the strengths of your spouse, if you have one, your partner, is super, super important as well. So then you know how those two are working together. And the reason I say that, Jim, is because my wife has Activator at the top, and you just sounded like her.

Flow for Coaches Embedded in Organizations

Jim Collison 35:53
She's, she's great! Oh, the curse -- the, the Activator curse. Yes, it does happen. Muzz, you said something that reminded me, you know, we often talk to our, kind of our solopreneur coaches, but well over half of our certified coaches are embedded in organizations. And if we, if, say we had an embedded -- and we do; we have embedded coaches that are listening to this -- who don't have to worry about the business side of things. But if you think about coaching them and their coaching in an org -- in an organization, what does that mean for them? And what is, what could that flow be like? Or what kind of advice might you give to them around this topic inside the organization? They're not worried about the business end of things; that's all taken care of. But working with people, what kind of advice would you, would you have for them?

Murray Guest 36:49
So the first thing that pops in the head, in my head is that your strengths journey is ongoing. And so as a strengths coach, when you're working with people, helping them understand their strengths within your organization, you're on an ongoing journey for yourself as well. So how are your strengths showing up, continuing to understand what they're looking like; how they're helping you; how they're helping -- hindering you at different times. And then that continual reflection to then, you know, continue to honestly Claim and Aim those strengths as you go along, I would say that's a key thing.

Murray Guest 37:25
I think the second one would be, again, that clarity piece. With anyone that you're helping, whether that's group coaching or a one-on-one coaching within the organization, get really clear about what you're trying to achieve and what that looks like. And you can always revisit that as you go along. But again, create that space for that conversation. And the way I've framed this up in the past is have the conversation before you need to have the conversation. And quite often, when we get to the, to the place of Ah, I thought you were doing this. I thought this was what was going to happen. I thought these were the outcomes. Then we've got the emotions are starting to kick in and a bit of the fight or flight might be happening. We want to have that conversation earlier, to prevent, you know, getting to a place of, you know, high emotion and someone saying something which is maybe not the way they wanted it to come out. So let's have the conversation before we need to, and what does that look like? Let's get clear about what we're trying to achieve and how we're going to work together and do that.

Murray Guest 38:25
And my third part here, Jim would be, again, your own energy management. So coaching can drain a lot of people; it does drain me definitely a lot of the times. And so, be clear around, when you're setting up that coaching within the organization, giving yourself some time to recharge, to refresh. Early on, Jim, I was doing back-to-back coaching with no breaks, and then I wondered why I was falling asleep at 4:00 in the afternoon. Like, so definitely, as an internal coach, consider how you are giving yourself that time to refill your bucket, refill your energy levels between, and, and making sure that you are creating that space.

Murray Guest 39:11
And I guess the fourth one -- now you've got me thinking -- is quite often, I think, as coaches and wanting to serve others, and maybe this is my high Responsibility at times, is we can feel like we're the ones driving the process. You know, taking all the notes, driving the ownership and doing that. But actually, we need people that we're coaching, whether it's a manager leading a team or someone one on one, for them to own their own development and to be driving it. And so again, be clear about what, what am I going to bring to the partnership and what are you doing? Let's get really clear on that. And that could come down to notes from the coaching session or follow-up information or booking sessions. But let's just get really clear on that, to make it easier in getting to that flow.

Advice for Embedded Coaches With Multiple Roles

Jim Collison 39:54
I think some internal coaches, it's not their only responsibility to coach. They're, right, they're also doing another job on top of it, which they have to balance. I think -- I loved your advice, you know, the, the pressure's a little bit different and the clarity. We, we've, I've heard this a lot in the Facebook groups, that folks, folks prepandemic, they were wanting this strengths culture, strengths-based culture to begin. We went through the pandemic; leadership is now seeing the destruction that took place. And they remember, Oh, there was this person, who, before the pandemic, was talking about strengths. We need a strengths initiative. And they come to those people and say, I want everybody in the company's strengths today. Right? There's this, "We need it done today" kind of thing. What would you be, for a coach like that, what would be your advice, as you think about, like, now, it's too, it might be too much of a good thing all at once. Any, any thoughts on the, "We want it all right now" type deal?

Murray Guest 40:57
Yeah. Well, I totally get that. Now, I mean, in my previous role as an L&D manager of a large site, I, I experienced that. So I think you raise an important point that I think we can't skip, though, Jim, is when your role as a coach is part of another role that you've got, I think, again, the conversations with your manager around How do I fit this in? What does that look like? That it's not just something that I'm adding on to my business-as-usual work, I think, is really important. Because I have, unfortunately, I'm sure you have, Jim, where it's like, I've got to deliver on these projects in this business as usual, and I'm trying to squeeze in being a coach. So let's get clear with your manager, and how does that work around what I do need to deliver? And how can I be a coach that's supporting the business? So I think that's really, really important.

Murray Guest 41:49
And then when we've got someone that's full of passion, and we want to roll out strengths to everyone, let's get a clear project plan in place, like we would with any other project we're doing the business. Who's doing what doing when? What does success look like? And then How do we create some momentum and do it as you would any other project? If you're rolling out a new ERP system or doing some other cultural change -- whatever it might be -- treat it like a proper project. Don't just treat it like Ah, one person can go and do that. Because you wouldn't do that if you're rolling out some new, new process or system. And so get clear on the project and get the people on board.

Murray Guest 42:30
And then the second one is make sure you have the leadership support from the top. I had a client recently that wanted to do some leadership training. And we went through what the culture is like. And honestly, Jim, I was getting some, some flags that said, we need to do some work with the leadership team. And we need to make sure they're on board before we go ahead with this. And I was very clear. And that hasn't progressed, because I don't think that client wants to do that. And so, to be honest, if we've not got that alignment around what are we trying to achieve with the leaders and the managers, and it's been cascaded down, and it's you trying to push it from the side, it will never get there. So again, let's make sure we've got that cascading, you know, we're speaking the language, this is important getting people involved from the top.

Jim Collison 43:21
Justin says, Totally critical -- without top leadership endorsement, it's a tough haul for sure. We -- early in the pandemic, we spent a lot of time talking about building strengths-based cultures. And one of those steps is executive leadership sponsorship in an org. And I love, I love the accountability you put back. So an organization comes and says, "We want to be strengths-based," and you're like, "OK, the leaders need to do it first." And then if, like, if you get pushback at that point, no matter what you do downstream, you're gonna fight it; chances are you may be fighting it the whole way. I love -- do you kind of see that as like a little litmus test, to be like, Hey, if the leadership's not willing to do it, is that kind of what you're looking for?

Murray Guest 44:08
I would say it's, honestly, a multifaceted thing. And what I mean by that is, could be a situation where there's one manager that wants to introduce strengths to a team. And this is an opportunity to introduce it to the rest of the business. And once that happens, there's going to be a flow-on effect, and the rest of the managers can see that. So that may be an option. But if I feel like there's no manager support at all, well, then, yeah -- to be honest, at my best, I would say "No, Jim, let's not go ahead." Early on in the business, 8 years ago, I think when I wasn't so structured and confident in that approach, I've might have said -- and I did say -- "Yes" to some things. And I was like, Oh, I shouldn't have, because they didn't have that sponsorship. Yeah.

Maintaining Your Coaching Energy in Your Work Environment

Jim Collison 44:57
Couple good comments coming in, and some questions. Let's, let's cover those here. Tish says, I realized early on that I needed to put 30 minutes on my calendar in between coaching calls, just to give you a chance to come back and get some natural energy -- and some other things like lunch or bathroom breaks. Right? I think we think we can stack those up. And we have good intention of ending a call 10 minutes early. But you know that doesn't work, right? Yeah.

Murray Guest 45:23
I just want to jump on this one too, Jim. And it's, whether you're an employee in an organization or you're a coach running your own business, and you are working from home, the build on this energy management in this space is also how you're using the energy of your home. And what I mean by that is, I've heard of lots of people that are like, I've set up my home office, and that's where I work. And I feel like I'm honestly trapped in a prison, because that's my space. And then I've heard other people say, I've, the space works for me. So it's, again, it's individual: Here's what I know works for me. And for other people that I've talked to is, when I say use the energy of your home, I have an office I'm in right now, which is the, this is my office, get stuff done, be present.

Murray Guest 46:12
Then I know if I want to be a bit more creative, I'll sit somewhere else. I'll sit out towards the back of the house. And then if I'm actually doing some work that's a bit, you know, a bit shallow, a bit more of that just processing things, I might sit at the dining table. And then if there's a coaching client that I want to have a different type of conversation with, honestly, I'll sit up in the corner of the bedroom, shut the door, and I can be really, really present. Or if it's a, it's just more of that check-in with a client, I might just go out the front and pull some weeds out of the garden and have a chat on the phone. And so I think it's a really powerful thing to think about where you might sit, no matter how big or small your place is, that's going to really support what you're trying to achieve and support your, your energy.

Jim Collison 46:59
I love that. This is gonna sound crazy, but at the very beginning of the pandemic, this direction that I'm talking to you right now, this is the webcast direction. This is, when I'm podcasting, I go this direction. The work laptop is sitting over here to my right -- for those that are on audio, it's over here to my right. I have a camera for that as well. I could do work this way. But I needed to separate the two out. And so I go this way -- I go 90 or 45 degrees different, 90 degrees different. And (angles were a challenge for me in school). And so 90 degrees different. And it, it changes, it changes my mind a little bit, right. It's like, Nope, I'm taking work calls on this side. And when I'm webcasting, I'm taking them in this direction. My chair, literally, it just doesn't move. But it's the, it's a different, it's a different angle. It's a different location, it's a different point of view, I guess is what you're saying. Right?

Murray Guest 47:56
Yeah. So you change the environment. And it influences your mindset and your approach. And just like we know we can walk into one office and go, Oh, this is great. I feel energized and inspired! In another office, we might walk in and go, Oh, this doesn't inspire me; I feel a bit drained. And it's the same for our home spaces as well. And the subtleties in those changes, like you're saying, Jim, are really powerful. And I actually invite everyone to look at that, whether you're a coach within an organization or a coach from home, because a lot of people's doing, doing hybrid working at home, just get a feel for that and what that looks like for you.

Jim Collison 48:34
Now that we've added going, going back into the office into that equation, I've done something similar now with the office. I had certain things I'll do in my office, certain things I want to do in the studio. And so, and then, so I have four different locations, right -- I have home, these two in the office, in the studio in the office or in my office. And I love that. I'd never -- until you talked about this, I never thought about the different energies that those brought; it just naturally happened that way. But it's right -- I gravitated towards them because I was getting different feel, I was getting different energy. You know.

Murray Guest 49:11
I just, I just pitch it to you at a board table. And we're all sitting around having a meeting. And then you're working on something and then a decision needs to be made and you say to everyone, hang on, we need to all turn 90 degrees now -- to then have a different conversation.

Moving From Burnout to Flow

Jim Collison 49:28
It's, maybe it's a little bit like. It's just, it's change, it changes your mind a little bit. I don't want to miss this question. Rebecca had asked, When people are burned out, they often feel like there's a big gap from burnout to flow. Have you seen clients who are in burnout also manage to get into flow, and how can this gap best be navigated?

Murray Guest 49:46
Ah, it's, it's a big question, Rebecca, and thank you. I think, unfortunately, yes, I've seen it and I've felt it myself. I would say the first thing is, again, I'm not a psychologist. And as coaches, we're not often, majority of the time. And if someone's really burned out, do they need to get some support from somewhere else? And so that could be using a company EAP or seeing a health professional. So I'd say that's sometimes something we explore.

Murray Guest 50:19
The second thing is, again, look at your strengths. I'm a big believer of if we're getting to use our strengths somewhere in our life, it's filling up that energy, filling up the bucket. The third thing is those one-percenters we talked about before. Where's some of those small shifts that someone can make to help start to rebuild that energy and start to do that? And it could be, like we said very early on, Jim, about don't wait a month to take 2 weeks off. Can you take a day off and, and spend some time doing what will refill your energy and your cup and to rebuild that?

Murray Guest 50:55
The, the last piece, which has been very, really valuable for me over the last 8 years, and also for people I work with, around that shift in gratitude. And so that mindset that comes when we've got a gratitude approach to our life, and I would even say, leveling your gratitude expectation -- sorry, lowering your gratitude expectation. So I'm really grateful for the smallest things, which then creates this gratitude mindset, which then you really appreciate what's around you, which starts to change how you're thinking about what's going on in your in your life.

Jim Collison 51:31
Yeah, I love that. That gratitude, like recognition, has a way of creeping its way into the way you feel. Right? You know, you're having a bad day or whatever. And you're like, Ah, could I be grateful for something? I know that sounds weird. But it is one of those things that you begin, and it begins to, it begins to work its way through your system, and you're like, Oh, maybe there's some other things that can be kind of grateful for. One of, one of the other things that's been helpful to me during this crazy last couple years is this idea of a reboot. And when things just aren't working, I'm like, I'm just going to reboot that whole thing. Like, it's, let's just, and I think sometimes we thought that was a failure. And we like, we quit, right? Like, and so, instead of quitting, not. Just let's just do a reboot. Like, I want to keep doing it. But I've got to do it completely different than I've done it in the past, right. Any thoughts on that?

Murray Guest 52:23
Sometimes we need to update the operating system. Sometimes we need to update the hardware. Yeah, I'm holding my phone up, for those listening to the audio.

Jim Collison 52:32
Yeah. Yeah, but keep going.

Murray Guest 52:34
Yeah, I was just going to say and, and for me, like you, redoing the, your, your home office that you mentioned, I know, when, when I do that, it's like, I need to do a reset around How am I approaching this, what I'm doing, where I'm investing my energy in this space. Is it working? Is it not working? Well, I need to just change everything. And then through that change, we're going to start to do things a little bit differently. And so I think the one-degree shifts, obviously, are important, which is a bit of a evolution. But sometimes, like you're saying, Jim, maybe it's a big revolution of like, I'm just going to reboot and change how I do this.

Jim Collison 53:13
It's actually, it's been refreshing. It's, so instead of quitting, you just reboot. And you're like, OK, I still have to keep doing this. But I'm going to do it completely different than I did it before. And it's a little bit freeing on that. And it's not a term I even, I mean, I, I've only done it a few times successfully, but in the middle of one right now, and I'm, it's incredibly freeing. And I'm like, Oh, I got a chance to do this completely different. OK. Like, let's get on this thing. So pretty great. Muzz, anything else as we, we've got just a few minutes left. Anything we missed or anything else that you wanted to encourage the coaching community at large with, as we think about advice around this thing that we do?

Murray Guest 53:57
Yeah, one that jumps out straightaway, Jim is living what you teach. And, unfortunately, over the years, whether it's a coach or a manager that I've worked with, is working with some other people and helping them around strengths or another area that they support in -- so for me, it might be around mindset or communication or providing effective feedback, whatever it might be. But unfortunately, what happens sometimes is we don't live that. And it's a bit like the mechanic that's got the worst-running car. And so what I would say is, if you are helping people, you're partnering with people, whether it's with an organization or your own coaching business, look to apply in your own life what you're helping people with. And it might not seem -- it might seem obvious, I should say, but honestly, it makes a huge difference. And so, like, for example, there's a feedback process I use at home with my wife and my children. There's a model around communication that my wife and I use regularly. And what it does is it locks in for you as a practitioner. But also, it actually is just living authentically. And I just say it's something so, so powerful.

Jim Collison 55:24
I completely agree. It's, it's tough to, like, I mentioned this earlier, it's tough to take someone a place you haven't been before. And so I think we've got to continue. And I, you know, for me, living, living my life experience through the advice, the wisdom, the learning of not only what, what Gallup's research says, but coaches globally has made a huge impact on who I am and what I do. I was talking to some folks the other day, like, "How do you know so much about this?" I'm like, "Well, I have to listen to every single episode of the stuff I record, right. That means I have to learn it." And it's, and it has great impact on me, because I'm actively engaged in the conversation and what we're doing. And so, yeah, I guess I would echo that; encourage folks to not be afraid to, that this isn't something to teach; this is something to live.

Murray Guest 56:18
Yes. Yes, I agree. Yeah, totally agree. We did have a team strengths grid on our fridge, which was for our family for many years. And it was great, just, you know, to, to reference. And I'm happy to say we're beyond that now, because we actually really live and breathe it.

Jim Collison 56:36
Right. Right. And it has its phases, I think, too, with our family. We have a Google^® doc that we just share, and it's got everybody's, you know, it's got everybody's themes in it, and you could go in. And we don't do it all the time. But every once in a while, someone will be like, you know, I wonder what, they'll hear something and they'll be like, What was that? And then, you know, they'll dig into the, dig into the spreadsheet to see like, Whoa, what was happening there? So I think another great tool to use with your family for sure.

Murray Guest 57:03
There is a caveat here, Jim, when you can be too passionate. And my, my son, when his, his, his girlfriend, I think it's like the second or third time came over to our house, and he's a teenager. And I just walk in and say, "So, do you want to do your strengths? Let's find them out." And she was like, "What are you talking about?" And I'm like, Oh, OK, I need to explain this thing that we do here, so you're on the same page. But it was then, honestly, really powerful for them to understand each other.

Jim Collison 57:37
Well, my daughter does not let anyone, like, they can't be her friend if they, she doesn't know their strengths. She's given, she's begged me for codes, she's given away. She's just like, Yeah, I can't have friends I don't know, I don't know what their Top 5 are. Like that's, that's how important it is for her.

Murray Guest 57:55
I love that. And can I just say, Andrea has just commented in the chat, Using the Best of Me exercise with a spouse is a good exercise. I love that. It's a powerful exercise with friends, with family, and obviously, with organizations and teams, but it can go anywhere. One last thing I do want to mention, Jim, and that is in this desire and journey of creating more flow in your life, whether you're an internal coach or a coach running your business, also be easy on yourself. I think with COVID in the last few years and the challenges that we've all had in different ways, and just like, we often think about the people we're serving and working with, but also let's be easy on ourselves, because there's been lots of challenges. And when we don't get that exactly right, that's OK. And when you're not in that flow state, or you're out, that's OK. And learn from that. But also, just be easy on yourself and be kind to yourself as you go along. And I think that's been something that has been really, really helpful for me.

Jim Collison 59:04
Good. And easily said, harder to do. But even that requires some grace to your, back to yourself, right, on that? Yeah. So, Murray, thank you for spending the time with me today. It always goes super fast. Thanks for having me on your podcast -- last year was that or the year before? Something, something along those lines?

Murray Guest 59:25
COVID makes messes up with times -- it could have been 6 years ago; who knows?

Jim Collison 59:28
It really could have been, but always great to spend time with you. Some great encouragement that's going to come in from the chat room as we kind of wrap this up. But if folks want to get in touch with you, if they got any questions, they want to get in touch with you, what's the, what's the best way to do that?

Murray Guest 59:43
The easiest way is just connect with me on LinkedIn and send me a message, so Murray Guest -- G-U-E-S-T. But also check out my website -- inspiremybusiness.com, and you can send me a message there. So either is great. And Jim, as always, it's been wonderful to kick with you. I was in flow -- that hour has gone so quick. And thank you again. I really appreciate it. And I want to acknowledge all the comments and the interaction in the chat today. I've been seeing all those come up. It's been fantastic, really appreciate it.

Jim Collison 1:00:14
It's always nice. I don't do this often enough, but to bring these in at the end of the conversation, as people are thanking the guests that are coming in and, and for things that are said. So we appreciate you guys. You can continue with that recognition out there in chat, because we keep it all. But Murray, thanks for coming out.

Jim Collison 1:00:32
We'll remind everyone to take full advantage of all the resources we do have available around this on -- Mark will love that statement that I just made; he's my editor -- around this at gallup.com/cliftonstrengths. For coaching, master coaching or if you want to become a Gallup-Certified Strengths Coach, you can send us an email: coaching@gallup.com. Don't forget to stay up to date with all the webcasts that are coming out. A couple series coming up that are starting in November, the Season 2 of The CliftonStrengths Podcast as we look at leadership, authentic leadership. We're going to spend some time -- it seems like a timely topic with what we talked about today. And so that'll be happening soon. Go out to gallup.eventbrite.com. Follow us there, and you'll get an email whenever I schedule a new event like this one, and we thank the hundreds that registered for this one as well. A great way to stay up to date. You can join us in the Facebook group: facebook.com/groups/calledtocoach, and I'm always amazed how many people make it. I say that, and people always say, No -- if you say the web address, they'll never make it there. And everybody makes it there. So facebook.com/groups/calledtocoach. Thanks for joining us today. Appreciate it. We will see you on the next one. With that, we'll say, Goodbye, everybody.

Murray Guest's Top 5 CliftonStrengths are Relator, Futuristic, Individualization, Communication and Responsibility.

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