Coaching Toward Strengths-Based Career Success

Gallup Called to Coach Webcast Series -- Season 10, Episode 36.

Below are audio and video plus a transcript of the conversation, including time stamps.

The past two-plus years have seen massive changes in the workplace and, for many employees, career change as well. How can understanding your own strengths at a deep level help you navigate your career journey? How can you gain insights on whether now is a good time to change your role within your company versus changing companies or even changing careers? How can you discern whether a prospective employer will value you for the talents you bring? Jennifer Doyle Vancil, Gallup-Certified Strengths Coach and collaborator on the book Practical Strengths: Career Success, joins the webcast to share the wisdom she has gained with you on this timely topic.

Strengths awareness really matters a lot in our careers, in those four things: ... What do you look for? How do you look? What do you communicate? And then How do you succeed when you get the job?

Jennifer Doyle Vancil, 13:42

If you can't explain your strengths to someone else, they can't open doors for you to help you use them.

Jennifer Doyle Vancil, 9:16

A lot of people will call me and say, "I need a new job; I need a new company," and they haven't actually had the conversation with their manager or with ... people in other departments about what the opportunities are. Moving within your organization is always your easiest job search.

Jennifer Doyle Vancil, 28:00

Jim Collison 0:00
I am Jim Collison, and this is Gallup's Called to Coach, recorded on August 30, 2022.

Meet Our Guest on This Episode

Jim Collison 0:17
Called to Coach is a resource for those who want to help others discover and use their strengths. We have Gallup experts and independent strengths coaches share tactics, insights and strategies to help coaches maximize the talent of individuals, teams and organizations around the world. If you're listening live and you don't see the chat room, there's a link for it right above me there. If you're listening to the podcast audio or the YouTube video after the fact, and you have questions -- well, if you're in the chat room, put your questions in the chat, but afterwards, send us an email: coaching@gallup.com. Don't forget to subscribe on your favorite podcast app or right there on YouTube with the Subscribe button -- that's right over there -- so you never miss an episode. Jennifer Doyle Vancil is my guest today. Jennifer is a strengths-based career coach and consultant in Colorado, who works with clients nationally and internationally who want to create strengths-based careers and workplaces. There's been a lot of that lately. She's a Gallup-Certified Coach and a candidate for ICF Professional Certified Coach. She's an expert contributor and collaborator on the second book of the Practical Strengths series, the one we just released with Jo Self, called Practical Strengths: Career Success. Just came out May of 2022. Jennifer, welcome to the program, and congratulations on the book!

Jennifer Doyle Vancil 1:27
Thank you so much, Jim. Thanks for having me. I'm excited to talk with our community today.

Jim Collison 1:32
I'm excited to have you. I got to spend about 25 minutes with you before we -- everything went well, and we got some good time together, and I appreciate that. Your Top 5: Communication, Connectedness, Maximizer, Woo, Relator. I think in that conversation, we realized we share about 8 out of 10 on those Top 10. But great to connect with you. Give us a little bit of your background. You were in career coaching for a lot of years. But tell us a little bit about yourself and what you've done.

Jennifer Doyle Vancil 1:58
Yeah, sure. Thanks so much. So I spent 25 years in higher education before becoming a consultant. So I was at the University of Alaska Anchorage, actually, for many years. If anybody wants to talk about snow, that's one of my favorite topics. I loved my time in Anchorage -- spent 14 years there, actually. And then actually have been in Colorado for the last several years. Spent the last 10 years as a Career Counselor at Colorado State University. And then I also contract to the University of Tennessee for some coaching work. And so really excited to be connected with universities. About 4 years ago, when I became a Certified Coach, I started doing consulting work and private coaching. And during the pandemic, that really took off. So I went half time at my university job and did both for a while. And then just this summer, after the book launch and getting quite a bit busier, I left my day job. I still teach at Colorado State and coach at the University of Tennessee. But I'm doing full-time consulting now. So it's been quite a journey.

Jim Collison 3:07
That -- sounds like you're living the dream. Did, did you imagine 3, 4 years ago -- I mean, think about it. That seems like 100 years ago -- Did you think you'd be in the place as a career coach, did you think you'd be in the place today that you, that you are? Any insight to that and how that came to be?

Jennifer Doyle Vancil 3:24
You know, I think what's interesting, no, I didn't know anything like what happened would happen. I think what's really interesting is to reflect how, as a consultant, I had to change my business model every year because the world was changing so quickly. So prior to the pandemic, it was really a side gig. You know, I was working in higher ed, it was really, it's very mission-driven, I have high Belief and Connectedness, so I really believe in the work I was doing. And I actually thought that was the only place I could do mission-driven work was in higher education, I didn't realize how much satisfaction I would get from doing the private coaching and consulting work. And I also love it just as much, but I didn't know that back then.

Jennifer Doyle Vancil 4:06
So I thought back then, this will always be a side gig for me. I will always work in higher ed. However, when, when the pandemic hit, and there were so many people out of work, there was so much demand for people who needed help with job search. So I'm a big LinkedIn user. And it seemed like LinkedIn request after request after request was coming in for people who needed help with resumes and interviewing and job search. And so, really, 2020 was an explosion of help everybody job search whose industries are gone. And, I mean, it was just overwhelming in a lot of ways. I think if you talk to anyone in my industry, I think I felt very responsible. I wanted to help everyone. And so I did the best that I could to help as many people as I could in 2020. In 2021, it changed. In '21, the conversation wasn't, "I need a job now! I need a job now!" It was, "Hey, you know, I'm rethinking everything." You read about the Great Resignation; I saw it in my business. People started calling me -- not, "I need a resume; I need a job search." They started calling me for, "Hey, I know you do the strengths thing. I don't think I'm using my strengths in my career. Can you talk to me about that?"

Jennifer Doyle Vancil 5:19
And so it was much more about career exploration and transition. And so 2021 was, was really all about that. And I would say that has continued. A lot of my work is people who want to work from their strengths who, who don't think they are. But what happened in '22 is as the world opened up, and companies were losing people, they were saying, Can you come in, and can you do training? We're losing people; we don't want to lose people. And I realized the connection between the career development work and the corporate work that I could do is like workplaces don't want to lose people. So how do you become a strengths-based workplace so that people don't want to quit? Because they had high turnover. And so I saw the connection then between the career coaching work I was doing and helping the companies not lose their people.

Jim Collison 6:08
So that's, that's interesting. That raises the question, How different is the work when someone is looking or thinking about a transition and the work necessary to keep people in a current role that they're in? Because to me, it seems like that exploration is pretty similar. You kind of touched on this -- is that, as you're working with organizations to help keep people, you're of course wanting those people to reinvent themselves internally, right, in what they're doing, and then you have the external. How different is that? I never put that together. How different is that, is the coaching?

Jennifer Doyle Vancil 6:41
Well, I would say one of the most common conversations I have with people that I'm coaching is, "What have you done to communicate your needs, your desires, your, your career path wants within your company?" Most people say, "Oh, they don't care. They don't care. Like they, they don't want me to say; it doesn't matter." And it's amazing, when they actually have the conversation, how much does open up. I just was working with someone who absolutely got to the point where she quit. And she went to her manager, she said, "That's it! I can't do it anymore." She said, "I'm not having good relationships, and that really matters to me. And I really want to create this knowledge base, and I don't get to spend any time on it." And she started saying all the things she wished she could do. And they literally, on the spot, created a job for her to keep her. And she was so frustrated with her work; she just had never had the conversation. So I always tell people, "Have the conversation internally." But when I'm speaking to people in the company, I'm encouraging them, "You start the conversation. Otherwise, your employees are calling me to get a new job, and you just don't know." So everybody needs to understand how and where they can work from their strengths within their company. And if they're not, they're going to be disengaged. They're going to call somebody like me if you don't have the conversation. So --

Jim Collison 7:59
Yeah, that intrapreneurial-type spirit. I think about my own role. I've said this many times here on the program of how, you know, we kind of invented this kind of role at Gallup, and it was a sweet fit for me. And so it's working well. But kind of a, that's an interesting thought for me to think through -- that those two exercises are very similar: keeping someone in a role and, and getting them in a new role are a very similar, kind of a very similar exercise. We spent some time yesterday on LinkedIn Live talking with Dr. Tim Hodges, at the strengths Institute at UNL. We focused at that from a college perspective. And oftentimes when we think about career development, we think of it at the college level. But how different is the coaching when you're coaching a college student, and then when you're coaching a professional -- is that completely different? And then I want to talk a little bit about how the book can help with that. But are those different exercises, or are they similar?

Jennifer Doyle Vancil 8:53
I actually think that they are not different. I think the conversation is first around awareness of your strengths. What are your strengths? And can you understand them yourself, and can you communicate them to others? And that's really the key. I named my company "Communicating Strengths"; Communication's my No. 1. But I realized that was the thing that I was so passionate about helping people do. Because if you can't explain your strengths to someone else, they can't open doors for you to help you use them. So that process of understanding and communicating your strengths and figuring out who needs to know -- whether it's your workplace team, whether it's people that you're interviewing with, whether it's how you communicate your strengths on a resume or in LinkedIn, you know, it's being able to understand and communicate your strengths. I think that's the same process, whether we're talking with high school students, college students, working professionals or even within families. It's the same process. Do you understand, and can you communicate it?

Using Practical Strengths: Career Success Effectively in Your Career Journey

Jim Collison 9:51
You spent some time, you're this -- I'll call you the senior contributor to the, to the book that Jo put out, Practical Strengths: Career Success. As you think about the resources available, and I kind of think of that as a resource book; like this not one you probably read from beginning to end. It kind of breaks down, it's got, you've got questions based on, on individual themes. If you were to think about that book as a resource for both college students, and then maybe for folks looking for a career, midcareer, even late career change in what they're doing, What's the best way, or what would be your advice in using that resource?

Jennifer Doyle Vancil 10:28
Yeah. Thanks for asking. So I'm really excited about the book. And I'm just honored that Jo asked me to partner with her. She's writing a whole series on how strengths is practically used in the world. So her second book, Career Success, she asked me to partner with her since that's kind of my world -- strengths and career are the two things that I dovetail in my work. There's 4 things that we really brought out in this book. And that's that understanding strengths helps you do these 4 things: Determine what kind of role to look for. So I actually think that conversation is helpful for internal, I mean, we're actually seeing managers use the book to know what kind of conversations to have with their employees to keep them internal and to help them not want to leave; they, they want to create a strengths-based career within the company. That also happens in college classrooms. And I certainly use that in one-on-one coaching. So the first category is what to look for. So if you are a person with high Relator, then you want to find a place where you can have deep, trusted long-term relationships. So obviously, that's going to be different for someone with Woo; it's going to be different with some, for someone with Input. So what do you look for?

Jennifer Doyle Vancil 11:42
The second thing is, How do you look? So people with different strengths actually job-search differently and position for internal promotion differently and look for their first job out of college differently. So an example of that, I was working with someone who was a semiconductor engineer, high Input, Intellection, Analytical -- all the relational things very low on his profile. I always give 34 to people I'm coaching for career, because I want to know, like, we do not want to design a career around the bottom, right. So very high research orientation, basically. And job searching, he said, Well, I'm not going to network, that's for sure. And so I sent him to the library with a research project and actually had him do research and analyze different companies that use semiconductors within 50 miles of his home. And he came back with a color-coded spreadsheet and said, these are my favorites; I think I want to talk to someone there. But if I had just told him randomly to network, it never would have worked. So I had to know that he was Analytical and know that he had high Input and ask him to do tasks for his job search related to how he naturally operated. So yes, what to look for, but also How you look is the second thing in the book.

Jennifer Doyle Vancil 13:00
And then What to communicate. You know, if he, if he's high Analytical, he wants to tell stories about what he's analyzed and what he's able to analyze and the programs that he knows. So what you communicate in interviews, in resumes, in cover letters -- I do strengths-based resumes and cover letters -- and in LinkedIn. So that is a really key component, and certainly in interviewing, telling stories based on your strengths.

Jennifer Doyle Vancil 13:25
And then the last thing we cover in the book is, How to succeed on the job. You get, you get in there, first 30 days, if you're a person with high Context, you want to know the history of the company. If you're a person of high Individualization, then you want to get to know each of the people on your new team. So strengths awareness really matters a lot in our careers, in those four things -- I'll just say again, because I'm so excited about this: What do you look for? How do you look? What do you communicate? And then How do you succeed when you get the job?

Incorporating Your Top 5 Into Cover Letters, Resumes

Jim Collison 13:58
I asked Tim this question yesterday, and I'm gonna ask you: Do you, you mentioned resumes and cover letters. Do you put strengths on there? And what, what kind of recommendation do you do? And is it, do you tailor it based on the individual? Talk a little bit about -- because that's a big question we get all the time in the Facebook groups is like, Hey, do I put this on a resume? How do you do that?

Jennifer Doyle Vancil 14:19
Yeah. So when, when people work with me, they, they know they're getting strengths-based coaching. So most of the people that I work with do, do want that, because it's, it really informs all of our work. But we do create resumes, we put the Top 5 strengths across the top. But we don't just list them and leave it at that. I always encourage -- I work with people to create a professional resume that has a profile section at the top. And so that is a section where we put in bullets that are really their top selling points. And I always base those on strengths.

Jennifer Doyle Vancil 14:50
So if you have, for example, high Strategic, then you actually -- in addition to, maybe it says your name, your contact info and you know, Strategic, Connectedness, Maximizer, Input, Analytical. But we actually say, Set the strategy for XYZ and develop three alternate plans for reaching this goal. Or if it's, you know, something where Achiever is one of your top, then we would talk about what you achieved, you know, that you achieved the real estate certification during college in order to create X, Y, and Z -- making up bullets on the on the fly here.

Jennifer Doyle Vancil 15:30
But I actually have everyone that I work with, and when I'm teaching in higher ed too, have everyone create strengths statements. What does this actually mean? We have the worksheet available to us -- How I use my strengths. And so I actually have everybody do that in the very beginning, first meeting with me, what does this mean? How do you use your strengths? And then all throughout our work, we're going to pull those back out. OK, we're doing your resume. You said that your Communication allows you to post in social media and tell stories on video. How is that helping your business? How is that increasing your sales? How is that helping your presentations?

Jennifer Doyle Vancil 16:11
So I'm actually asking them through the lens of strengths, What are the things that you're most proud of, based on your strengths? Now here's the nuance there: If you have spent a lot of your work doing things that didn't fit your strengths, which is like most of the people who call me are feeling like they're not working from their strengths, and they want to. So if you hate being an accountant, and you hate the detail, Executing things that that requires, but you loved the relationships with the people, let's put the bullets at the top about the relationships that you've created, about the long-term customers that you've been able to retain. And let's deemphasize the number of tax returns you did last year, if that's not what you want to keep doing.

Sorting Out Dislikes: Your Job, Your Values, Corporate Culture

Jim Collison 16:55
How do you, how do you separate a culture and work? Like, especially if you're gonna work for an organization -- of course, if you're gonna do the entrepreneurial thing, you know, you get to kind of decide the culture that you, that you live in every day. But let's just say in a corporate setting -- small-, medium-, large-sized organizations, how do you, how do, in what you've experienced, someone saying, "I don't like this culture" or, versus "I don't like this job." How do you, how do you work on that? Or have you seen that?

Jennifer Doyle Vancil 17:25
Yeah, definitely. So one of the things that I feel really strongly about in career development is that we have 3 separate conversations. One of those conversations is about who you are as a person. And that's where strengths is really, really helpful. It's, you know, who you are, how you operate, the tasks you want to do, the orientation that you bring to the team and the work that you do. That's much more about yourself. The industry you're in, the company you're in, the cultures you're in, that's outside of yourself. So a lot of times people will say, "I don't like my job." And I really have to sort out which piece of that. And then there's values. So who you are; the industry, the company, the culture; and then values that are driving your decisions.

Jennifer Doyle Vancil 18:15
So if you think about someone says, "Well, I don't, I don't like my job." From a values standpoint, it might be because the commute is too long, or they're in the office and they wish they were remote, or the pay is not enough. There's something they value that they're not getting. That may not be about the company, and it may not be about a role misalignment; it might just be a values. So sorting that out is really important. Culture is one of those things that really is unique to sometimes a team or the company or the industry. So you have to sort out, in this instance, is, Do you have a bad manager? You know, our famous quote, right? "People don't leave jobs; they leave managers." So is the culture being set by a manager, but another department within your company doesn't have that culture? Or is it the whole industry?

Jennifer Doyle Vancil 19:09
I was working with someone who was in an industry where there was kind of some gender discrimination going on in this industry. And she changed companies and moved across the, the country twice to get new jobs. And she said, "I don't know what's wrong with me. But I keep ending up in places where I can't make a difference." And as we really unpacked that, we looked at her industry was not very welcoming. She was a diversity, equity and inclusion trainer in a industry that wasn't very friendly to it. And that was just true. And we realized it wasn't going to change unless she changed industries. So her role was fine, but the industry didn't work.

Ascertaining Organizational Values Before You Land a Job

Jim Collison 19:47
Jennifer, can you discover some of those values in an organization in the interview process before you get there? And how would you go -- from a, from a strengths-based perspective from your own or going in to the interview, how would you recommend? Because to your friend who's done this twice, you want to say, "Maybe you should be interviewing a little bit different." And I think oftentimes, we see the interview as a one-way conversation, but it is an absolute opportunity to discover some of those things. From a strengths-based lens, how do you see that?

Jennifer Doyle Vancil 20:23
So I love the Cascade report, I Bring, I Need, and I use it with everyone -- anyone will let me create that for them. I love it. So that, to me, is the answer to that question, Jim. So this person who was doing this DEI work understood clearly what she brought. She brought a really high sense of mission. She was high Influence. She really believed in what she was doing. She wanted to convey it. She wanted to make a difference. So she, she was really focused on, I bring this; I can make a difference in this industry. But what she needed was an environment that allowed her to do it. And that's what she was missing. So she was clear on what she brought, but didn't understand that she was in, in an environment that didn't allow her to be what she brought. And so that need is the critical part. So that's, that's where the strengths conversation really plays into understanding whether you have a fit in a role or you have a fit in a company, or even in an industry -- can I exist with what I need in this place? Will this place allow me to work from my strengths? And in that case, we had a misalignment.

Jim Collison 21:38
Do you think, I would think, if you begin to ask some of those questions in the interview, and you get some resistance on them, that's probably a pretty good sign that this may not work? Or, you know, you hate, you hate to judge a book by its cover, and you would hate to judge an entire organization by the HR professional or whoever is interviewing -- the manager, whoever, whoever is interviewing. Certainly, if you're being interviewed by the who could be your future manager, that's a pretty good leading indicator, you know, from that, from that point. But, and I guess I'd be careful. A couple questions: one, let's dovetail this question, and Jacqui asks, How do you find strengths-based organizations to get this to, that you get to work with? Let me phrase that in this, in this light. So you're interviewing from a career standpoint, you're interviewing, whether it's first job or midcareer. What kind of research, or how would you recommend someone look into the organization to see if they're coming at -- they may not call it that, right? But there may be some, there may be some clues. I don't know, give us some thoughts on that, Jennifer.

Jennifer Doyle Vancil 22:42
I think, you know, "strengths-based organization" is a really loaded term. Right? So it's funny, you know, I've worked with companies and universities who say, "We're strengths-based." But if you actually talk to the people on the ground, they're like, "Oh, I think we did that strengths thing once." I mean, it isn't necessarily because on face value, they say they are, it isn't necessarily permeated through the organization. So even if you could get a list of here's all the companies that have taken StrengthsFinder -- CliftonStrengths -- within the last 5 years, I don't even think that would tell you that. I think it's really about people who see individual value and allow people to be unique individuals. So I don't know that you can see that on a website. I don't even know that people that wrote the website are the same people that are hiring and that you're working with. In universities, you see that at career fairs, you know, where the person who submitted to the career fair said, "This is what we're hiring for." But the person who's standing at the table doesn't, doesn't know that they're hiring that.

Jennifer Doyle Vancil 23:43
So that's a negative answer of, here's how you can't tell: You can't necessarily tell from the website; you can't necessarily tell from the written materials. But I think you can tell by talking with the people in the organization. I don't actually think there's a substitute for that. I think it's a matter of having the conversation and understanding, How do you feel when you're talking to them? Do you feel valued? What kinds of questions are they asking? Are they asking about your uniqueness? Some things I think are clues are organizations that prioritize professional development -- that's a good clue. I think organizations that tend to have tuition reimbursement, that's a clue that they're, you know, trying to develop you as a human; that maybe they, they understand and value your uniqueness. And I think organizations that take time to do things like retreats, learning modules or things like that -- professional development is a good clue.

Making a Difference in a Strengths-Unfriendly Org vs. Leaving

Jim Collison 24:43
I, you may be able to get some of those with reviews off Glassdoor or some of those things, to be able to see what other people are saying. I think you have to be careful in those settings, right? A lot of people go to Glassdoor angry, and so you just have to, you know, you have to be careful in those settings. I'm going to play to your Connectedness and Belief in this question a little bit. Kristal is asking this question; she said -- and this is a great question, by the way: When is it worth it to try to make a difference within an "unwelcoming" industry versus being able to feel your strengths working more efficiently or quickly in something different? As you think about this career, like, it's, you know, when do I -- you gotta know when to hold 'em and know when to fold 'em, right? Can you talk a little bit about that?

Jennifer Doyle Vancil 25:27
Yeah, for sure. I wish I could remember where this came from. But it was described to me that sometimes being inside an organization is like you're a plant, and there's a glass box around you. And so certainly, somebody can water that. You can get water in the side, and you can be in good soil, and you can have sunshine. But if there's a glass box around you, you're kind of inside the, your plant is not able to grow, and it's going to be limited by the shape of the container that it's in -- if you can imagine that image. I think when you get to that point of realizing that unless you have a way to break that glass, if you have a way to take that off, or if, if you have an, an ally in the organization who can remove that barrier, if you have sponsors who can open a door for you, then you can break out of that box. And you can continue to grow and flourish like this plant, you know.

Jennifer Doyle Vancil 26:21
I think if you are hitting your head against that wall, and you're, you're trapped, and you're trapped, and you've tried this way, and you've tried that way, and you've tried this way, and there isn't anyone helping you break through, and you get to a point where it's affecting you, getting to an organization without that limiting container is the thing that will solve that. And so I do see a lot of people stay in jobs where they are very, very limited, and they stay so long that they're really, it's to their detriment, because they start feeling like, I don't have anything to give. When in fact, it wasn't that you didn't have anything to give; it's that you had a need to give that that wasn't valued.

Jim Collison 27:03
Yeah. And how important, then, see, I think there's no clear answer on this one; it's super gray, like, because sometimes another day could make a difference if you stayed. Like, how much gas do you have in your tank to give? How full is your bucket in this, in this situation? Right? How important is the, is, because you do this. And this, I'm gonna sound like maybe I'm pandering a little bit. But how important is a career coach, when you're going through these kinds of decisions? And that's a softball, but I think it is important. Talk a little bit about that, when you think about your experience in helping people through these situations.

Jennifer Doyle Vancil 27:40
I think, you know, the value of a coach that understands strengths is that we're going to ask you questions related to your engagement and how much you can be you in this environment. I do think I often am challenging people to have conversations within their companies. A lot of people will call me and say, "I need a new job; I need a new company," and they haven't actually had the conversation with their manager or with other people in other departments about what the opportunities are. Moving within your organization is always your easiest job search. It just is. It's always the simplest job search -- changing roles or changing departments.

Jennifer Doyle Vancil 28:19
However, if you have done that, and you've beat your head against the wall, so to speak, I think what, what, what us coaches can really do is encourage you to say, Can you remember your value? Can we go back to the strengths conversation? Look at what your Input can do. Look at what your Analytical can do. Look at the value of that Developer that you have. You love to develop people; you're not in an environment where you're able to do that. Is the environment changing? Is it allowing you to do that? And if not, what do you want to do with that? So we're gonna ask the hard questions, you know. Is this changeable, or is it not? Always -- I keep the Serenity Prayer on my wall in two places. You know, you have to know what you can change, and what you can't; the things you can change and the things you don't have control over.

Jim Collison 29:11
Yeah, yeah. And that's not always clear. I think sometimes we think, Oh, it will be, you know, like lightning, a lightning strike in front of me, and it will become super clear. And oftentimes, we may not know the right decision until later, till we've made it and it's later, or we may never know. You know, you kind of wonder, you know, I think, I look back at my own military experience. And I go, that was the worst decision I ever made. Right. But yet it led to so many great things in the future. Now, hindsight is 20/20, and it's easy to say those kinds of things, but -- it's super easy to say those kinds of things, and I value the experience. But it was terrible. It was a terrible experience for me.

Jennifer Doyle Vancil 29:50
I hear that a lot. I'm sorry you had that experience. I think that a lot of times when you're in a bad situation, you actually believe that all situations are bad. So if you've been in, I work with a lot of people who are in very oppressive work environments. And so, you know, you said something about, Well, it just depends on how much, you know, tenacity you have or how long you're willing to do it. I'm not sure that that's always the thing we need to value, because I think, you know, the value of setting a boundary, the value of knowing your own -- having some respect for yourself, and knowing that you're in an environment that is abusive -- some of them are or, or really limiting -- is really, really important. And I think that's the value of coaching to say, Now, wait a second. Tell me again why you're staying? What, what is it that you're staying for? Again, I think if we can separate out the role and where a person thrives from the industry and then from the values.

Jennifer Doyle Vancil 30:53
I stayed in higher ed for 25 years, because I absolutely believed in the mission. But I always had a second job because higher education is not a high-paying career. So I was working and working and working; always had a second job, because I believed in it so much. The role was a great fit. The organizations were a great fit. I was on amazing teams. But education is not a high-paying career. And I'm putting two kids through college. Finally, I had to say, OK, this one thing has to shift. So when, when you're in a role in an organization where it mostly fits, it's easy to not make a change and to not acknowledge that one thing that is not working. And I actually thought, it can't change. I can't ever change my income, because this is the only world in which I can ever thrive because I loved it so much. But there was that one thing not working. And that, that happens with a lot of our clients. Like, you know, I love the team, but I don't like the product. Or I love the company, but I don't like my role. But actually, you can change that one thing.

Jim Collison 31:57
No, for sure, It's, but it's never an easy decision. In the moment, right, it, it's, it's hard in the moment. I think this is where having a coach or a good friend, or maybe both, to talk about these things, to really look at it from a from another lens and to get people's advice on it. If you're, if you're battling this alone, it's a tough -- that's a tough place to be. I'm going to come back to the I Bring, I Need conversation for a second. Catherine says, she says, My tip to clients: during the interview, convert "Need" statements to questions. I love this -- thinking through -- most of the time, the hiring manager is present. Important to know if they'll give you what you need to thrive! And I love that.

The Interview Process as Learning Opportunity

Jim Collison 32:38
We, we spent some time, in fact, I'm headed out, right after this conversation today, I'm headed, driving down to Lincoln to do strengths discovery for the, for the Raikes School at UNL. And I've done this, I don't know, 7 or 8 years. I know, I know all the students down there; it's tons of fun. But as we're building charters, so they put, they're putting teams together, and so we're putting team charters together. And we base those charters on that I Bring, I Need -- you don't have to have a form to do this. You can just say, Hey, what do you bring to the team? And what do you need from the team? Right. And I encourage them to put that in the team charter, and then talk about it at least once or twice a month during the -- open with the team sessions. How are we doing in this area? I think that's also a great exercise for individuals to do in the job search. Right? And, and as you're interviewing, that you may be discovering things about yourself in the interview, too, right? How often do you think individuals -- and let me ask this question of you -- How often do you think the interview process itself is a learning opportunity, and people learn things about themselves during the process?

Jennifer Doyle Vancil 33:41
Absolutely. In fact, sometimes when someone is a little undecided about whether to leave their job, interviewing for another job is really, really telling, because then you can see an environment that's different than the environment that you're in. And then you can actually realize that there are some things that are changeable. I've certainly had people interview for other jobs, and then come back and go, "Actually, I like where I am. You know, there's a couple things that, that maybe could shift. But looking around and seeing what else is out there, I realized I really have a situation that mostly works. I'm just going to try to shift a couple things."

Making a Career Change When You're Burned Out

Jim Collison 34:16
Yeah, no, that's, that's actually unintended consequence I hadn't thought about: You get through the process, and you're like, You know, actually I'm good. This isn't, this isn't as bad as I thought it was. But almost a situation where, where the environment does some coaching for you, right? It gives you the opportunity. Sometimes individuals get stuck in their own bubble. You called it a glass, you know, I like to call it a bubble. They get stuck in their own bubble, right? And they haven't -- especially if they've been around in that bubble for a long time, and they just haven't seen other environments, and it may bring some appreciation to it. Kristal asks a great question as well. She says, Sometimes people are burnt out by the time they're ready to make a change. And this is tough, like your gas tank is empty, your bucket is empty. And, and how can they find support when their capacity is already low? If you're coming into this burnt out, what kind of strategies can we do from a coaching perspective to help individuals at least pour something back into the tank to get them started?

Jennifer Doyle Vancil 35:19
Kristal, it's such a good question. I love that you asked it! That happens really, really often. And I will say that my observation is, a lot of times someone needs to actually leave before they have another job. And that is only if you're in a place of privilege where you can do that. I was a single mom for 10 years; I never was in a place where I could do that. And I loved my job, so it was not in that circumstance. But that is not something everyone can do. But if you are in a circumstance where you can leave and get out of the environment that is limiting you -- and if it is a toxic environment, getting away from that and doing anything where you can use your talents, where you can be valued, even if it's, you know, just spending time with family or it could be volunteering or even, I've seen situations where someone couldn't just not have an income, but could you do something temporary?

Jennifer Doyle Vancil 36:17
I was working with a social worker who was really burned out during the pandemic. I mean, you can imagine. I think my most common clients in the pandemic were people in social services, medical professionals and teachers. So lots and lots of burnout. Getting away from the job changes your perspective so much. So even thinking about the social worker who got out of the environment and took a temporary job in an office where she just felt like she had some income; she could just do some transactional things. It wasn't as people-oriented; she needed a break from the people. And it allowed her to get a different perspective before she decided, OK, I do actually want a people-oriented job; I just need it to be a little less dramatic. So stepping away, that's, that's one thing.

Jennifer Doyle Vancil 37:05
If you can't physically leave your job, you can't -- you're not in a situation where you can do that, and so honored that that's true for so many people -- then you have to find ways to put some boundaries around it. I remember, someone in a real burnout situation contacted me, and she said, "I really want to work with you. But I'm working 10 hours a day. So I can only work with you in the evening." And I said, "I don't do clients in the evening; I'm with my family in the evening. So I would love to work with you. But I'm not available in the evening." And I was so sad about it. I went to a coach that I was working with, and I said, "Boy, she was really my ideal client." He said, "When can your ideal client meet?" I said, "Oh. My ideal client can meet during the day." And he said, "She's almost your ideal client, but not quite." So it took a breath. And I went back to her, because I had told her I would think about it. And I said, "You know what? I really, I really am not available in the evenings. I would sincerely love to work with you; I think I could help you. But I really don't work in the evenings." And she said, "Now I know you're the coach for me. I'm going to start taking a lunch break. You have boundaries; I don't. That's the problem." So for her, getting out of the toxic environment, even saying like, can you leave at 5, and can you take a lunch break to work with me? Her decision to take her lunch break to work with me was like a boundary; it was the first time she'd set a boundary. And that was the beginning of change.

Jim Collison 38:28
Those pesky tests that are, you don't know they're tests until you get through them and you do them, right. The whole time you were saying that, I was thinking, Well, just have her, you know, engage with a coach in Australia; that works perfect. That, that's their day. And that's our evening. So that's kind of -- in the global story of this, there's, there's some great opportunities, you know, for things like that. You, with the book, because I think career coaches need groups too. Like, sometimes, like there's some unique pressures in doing this, and you're taking on the weight, especially as we think about during the pandemic, you're taking on the weight of these, of individual emotions, and you have Connectedness and Belief. And so I think you probably take these on a little bit deeper than you do that. You, with the book, you've developed a LinkedIn group. I'm gonna throw that link in the chat right now and make that available. But talk a little bit about What are you trying to do with that group? And what's the purpose behind that?

Jennifer Doyle Vancil 39:24
Yeah, absolutely. So Jo Self, the author of the Practical Strengths series, and I, we just created a group in LinkedIn where we can discuss ideas around strengths and career. So I'm also in the Facebook group. So you'll see me commenting in the, in the coaches' Facebook groups, the Gallup, the CliftonStrengths groups, but I think that's always a limited conversation, right? And usually, you know, one comment; I'm not going to make 17 comments in there -- that's not the place. So this LinkedIn group is a place where we can really have a dialogue, and I'm hoping coaches will join and say, I have a client with high Deliberative who needs to interview. What are some of those strategies? Or, Hey, I read in the book that this person looks, needs to look for an environment where they can do a lot of research, but I'm having trouble figuring out what kind of companies that would be -- this would be a place.

Jennifer Doyle Vancil 40:17
So this is a LinkedIn group. It's just titled, "Practical Strengths: Career Success," which is the name of the book. And it's really, certainly, if you, if you have the book -- I hope you do; it's less than $10. So I hope you'll pick it up. But if you, if you have the book as a reference, it's a place to ask questions. I have Communication No. 1 and Connectedness No. 2, so LinkedIn is a fun space for me, because I can stay in touch with you all. I have Relator, so I if I've met you, I'd love to see you again. So that is a really fun environment. But I hope it's a place that we can really have longer dialogues and support each other, as we're working with the people we're working with.

Discerning the Coaching Time Needed for Career Decision Clarity

Jim Collison 40:56
Yeah, I like it -- not as much spam. As a, as a site administrator, Facebook's a little messy; LinkedIn is a lot cleaner. So I appreciate that. I threw the link in the chat, if you want to go over there and join that, you'll probably get a bunch off of this today. Roxanne asks a great question. So she says, Do you have an average amount of time that you work with clients to go through this process to get clarity on where "should" I be focusing my energy? Nobody's exactly the same. But talk a little bit about the process. Do you see some patterns? Is there an average amount of time?

Jennifer Doyle Vancil 41:28
Yeah, you know, that's, that was a really interesting process for me. When I started working with clients, you know, is this a one-time conversation? Is this a series of conversations? Where I've landed in my offerings is I'm doing career exploration in four to five sessions. And I really think it takes about that amount of time to understand your own strengths, evaluate the environment you're in, figure out if you're able to use them there, understand if you do want to make a change, what are your industries of interest? What are the values that are driving your decisions? And then how those things come together.

Jennifer Doyle Vancil 42:09
So if you're, if you know that you're a high one-on-one communicator, and you're in education, maybe you don't realize that you can also do one-on-one communication in banking. So you can just change the industry, even though if you stay in a similar role. That conversation -- that is a series of conversations for coaching -- I do that in four to five sessions with people. And then once they figure out what they want to do, we have to do a gap analysis and say, How close are you to this? And then start filling that gap. I talk about building a bridge to your next career. So that whole process of job search that has to be strengths-based, How can you build a bridge? Do you need to be in social media? Do you need to make networking connections? Do you need to be at a conference? Do you need to have, do informational interviews? Do you need to apply online because you're in a high-demand field and you can get a job by applying online? There are industries where you absolutely can. If you're a truck driver, you're golden, right? I mean, there's industries where you just apply, you get a call, data analytics is huge. So things that are high demand, you can.

Jennifer Doyle Vancil 43:16
What is the strategy for your job search, based on your strengths? I usually am talking to people about that in another four to five sessions. So there is a process that works for people. And then you've got to create your materials. And so again, another four sessions or so with that. So I am most commonly doing a 12-session engagement with people who want to make big change. And then we also, you know, provide written materials, based on their strengths and LinkedIn and how to use LinkedIn. It's amazing when I kind of sketch that all out how much there is to making a change. Now if you're making a smaller change, and you know what kind of change, you know -- I, I just want to get a promotion in this industry. I'm a Banker 1 and I want to be a Banker 2 -- that is a very straightforward job search. And it might just be materials and apply online or materials and network internally and interview well, and you're good. So, you know, those can be certainly four or five sessions sometimes, or eight, but it's not a one-time conversation. And I think that's the main point is that it's just a very complex transition.

Convincing a Skeptic to Get a Career Coach

Jim Collison 44:25
You said "Banker 1 and Banker 2"; after the military, I was a banker for a lot of years. It's like you know me! And so that bring, brought back some memories. We're getting some additional questions from the chat room. Lisa Feldman, your, your job is in stake, at stake here, because Kristal is asking so many great questions. So, Lisa, you better get on the stick. Kristal asks, How do you convince a skeptic to try a career coach, especially a strengths-based one? So talk a little bit about that process.

Jennifer Doyle Vancil 44:57
That's interesting. It's, it's funny. And Kristal, I don't know you; I look forward to meeting you. You're asking great questions. We should have coffee! I didn't plant her in the audience or anything, but, but I might have, because these are great questions. So, so convincing people is interesting. I am kind of a natural salesperson; I have high Influencing. And so I love the discovery call with someone. And having said, that I'm really low in Competition. So I love to talk about, you know, what coaching might do for someone and ask people questions -- Where are you stuck? And is that something you can get over on your own? If not, how might coaching help you? And then honestly, if people want to work with me, they do. And if they don't, they don't, and I don't chase them. And so the whole idea of "convince" is, it's hard for me with low Competition. Because I think, well, if someone else's approach fits better, like you should work with them.

Jennifer Doyle Vancil 46:00
But I think what you're asking, you know, when you think about how do you convince someone to try a coach is really, How do you invite someone into a conversation that you know is going to help them? So where I do use a lot of convincing is, Take the assessment and just see if it feels true. Just take the assessment -- I mean, it's 20 bucks, right? So for $20, you could get this answer that could change your life. And if you think that there's some value there, maybe do a discovery call, and just, you know, What were some of your insights? You know, talk to them for half an hour and see if they had some insights. And are you getting to use these things in your work? If not, is that something you want to change? Do you feel like you can change that on your own? If not, would you like some help?

Jennifer Doyle Vancil 46:44
I think one of the other things, to answer Kristal's question, is telling, telling stories. And, you know, we, we coach people as -- I do, as a career coach -- how to tell impactful interview stories. And so I definitely have my stories of, you know, someone who made an investment in coaching and got a 100-time return on their investment with the salary of their job. Or someone who got a 20% raise, or someone who, you know, they invested this amount, but their return was this amount. So telling those stories of where you have had success in the past helps people understand that it's an investment.

Determining the "Fit" of a Role, Org During the Job Interview

Jim Collison 47:22
Yeah, I love that -- good storytelling. And by the way, that, that can be practiced; if you're not good at story, telling stories, that's a skill that can be learned in practice, and I think a great opportunity. Tell your friends; work through them a couple times; get comfortable with it. Sabrina asks a great question, and I think the book's got some resources for this as well. But she asks, What do you recommend in regards to questions to ask at the end of the interview to determine the work-environment fit? We talked about this earlier in the program. As you think about the resources in the book, and I know you have individual questions in there based on themes, so maybe that'll play into this a little bit. But what say you on this question?

Jennifer Doyle Vancil 48:02
Yeah. So I think in the book, the first paragraph in every, in every chapter, there's 34 chapters; there's one for each of the talents. And in that chapter, we talk about what to look for. So when you're looking for an environment, I think it's really a test. So if you read just that one paragraph about your, one of your top themes of talent, and then say, Is this an environment where I can thrive? So, you know, we say in the book, people with this talent thrive in environments that look like this. So the question is, Is this an environment that looks like this? Is this a place where I can thrive? is really the question. So if you value high collaboration, and then you ask, you know, tell me about some of the projects you've collaborated on? How do people collaborate? And the answer is, well, we really expect people to work from home alone, and we don't really do meetings. And that's going to be an answer for you. So if you, if you look at what you need to thrive, that, I think the book would give you some good clues, because there's a paragraph in every chapter about that.

Jim Collison 49:05
We talked about this in preshow, but I think, if you're going to ask questions like that, you'd better be ready to listen. So listen and follow up. It's just as important -- the questions you're -- the follow-up question that you're going to ask is just as important as the question itself, because they may give you an answer (this, this tipped me off in your facial expression when you were living that moment); you were like Oh, yeah, that's not -- and you were hoping. Don't let that one answer be the answer. Follow up with it. Right. Say, OK, well, let's, let's dig in on that a little bit more. Tell me a little bit more about that, because I think you really want to get to the truth on it. And don't let one person's one statement --

Jennifer Doyle Vancil 49:45
Such a great point. Yeah. I mean, hopefully, you've talked to other people in the company even before you've interviewed. I always encourage people to do that. Try to find someone that somebody knows who works within the company to understand little bit more about the environment before that one person. A lot of times, recruiters are such hardworking, amazing people, and they are doing their darndest. But they are so busy right now in this, in this environment in the world, sometimes people will read culture of the company by how a recruiter responds or if they get back to them. That's not always the most accurate. So recruiters are doing their best. Be nice to them. They're really trying. But you do need to get past that. So the recruiter interview, sometimes it's just the screening -- do you have the basic skills that we need you to have, the experience? Get past that, and talk to the people you're actually going to be working with.

Jim Collison 50:38
It's great advice. And I did recruiting for a lot of years for Gallup, and I would go, and I did my best to try to reflect those departments that we were recruiting for. In most cases, I was the IT guy, and I understood it really well, because I managed there. But yes, be, be kind to the recruiter. Maybe ask them what their, "What's your full-time role? Like What, what are you doing?" Like, Well, I'm -- if they're, if they're recruiting, be kind to them, because they're just trying, right? They're trying. Chris, Chris asks a good question: Do you use another tool for your values discovery or do you pull that from strengths? Or maybe it's a combination of both?

Jennifer Doyle Vancil 51:11
That's a great question. Actually, I know, Chris, actually, is putting some different assessments together with, with his Life Calling Institute and work. So I might love for you to share your tool in the, in the chat, Chris, because I think it's a great one. I am typically doing that through coaching conversations. What do you value? What matters to you? I am just directly asking. There is an assessment that I've used; I do a lot of work with MBAs and graduate business students and have for the last 12 years. I use a something called Career Leader. It really only works especially well in the business world, if you're in the business world. It won't really tell you about being a veterinarian, but it will talk about kind of motivators and values. So that is a second tool, if I'm working with businesspeople or business students, that I'll use. I totally invite Chris to put in the chat, he has another assessment that I know he's using that gets to that. If you can't get to it through conversation, there are some other ways, but I'm usually able to get to it through conversation.

Helping Coachees Use Their Top Talents, Not Focus on Their Bottom 5

Jim Collison 52:17
Gallup was the very first place I ever worked where anybody asked the values question. And I actually really struggled for a lot of years to, to kind of determine my own values. I'm not sure this is a one-and-done exercise in a lot of cases, coaches, like, and, and not to knock assessments, because we make one, but, but also don't, just realize like, like the CliftonStrengths assessment, it's a lifetime of work after you've gone into these things. And so, so thinking about that, and I'm still thinking about my values all the time, you know, and then sometimes I'm like, Man, am I really that shallow? And the answer is "Yes." Geez, Jim, so I think we have time for one more question. Robyn asks it; she says -- and you alluded to this a little bit earlier, so a chance to dig in on it some: Do you use the 34 report with students as well? If so, how do you prevent them from focusing too much on the Bottom 5, and instead, use that energy to focus on developing their top talents? You talked about it, I think, from a career standpoint that you love that 34 in there. What about students?

Jennifer Doyle Vancil 53:21
Yeah, that's a great question. I will say, it depends on how much time you have with them and how skilled your coaches are. So when I was hearing Tim talk on the LinkedIn Live, and he was saying that they have a class on strengths, I think absolutely 34 would be really useful. When, when I did strengths in, at Colorado State -- we integrate it into the freshman seminar that I taught, and still, still use it there for the College of Business -- we did Top 5, and we really got an hour. And then we asked a few follow-up questions on some quizzes. And then I trained the career, other career counselors to add strengths-based questions. But it really wasn't, there wasn't enough time to delve into, What does the whole 34 mean? Even just understanding the domains, like Executing, Influencing, Relationship Building, Strategic Thinking, that takes a little bit of time to get your brain around.

Jennifer Doyle Vancil 54:20
So I do think the conversation around what does it mean to have something low? It means that it doesn't describe you; it means that it isn't a way that you engage. It doesn't mean it's something you're bad at that you need to be better at. But I do think if you have an hour with students, and you throw that whole report at them, depending on their background, like, I was in a family environment for a long time where someone was telling me that my top strengths were not very valued. I grew up in a family where they always were, but then I was in another environment where they weren't. It depends on the environment where the student is coming from. And so if you give them a list, and you don't have enough time to unpack it, they are gonna go to the bottom. It's interesting. I've been around Gallup for a long time. Gallup used to not give the 34 report unless you had coaching. Maybe you could speak to that, Jim, but that, I think, was the reason.

Jim Collison 55:17
Yeah, that, no, that was a concern for a lot of years. And we kind of protected it. And finally, the pressure, the consumer pressure just got to be too much. And they were like, Why can't you do this? OK, fine. Well, we'll give it to you. Although we did -- ironically, we didn't do it until we had a coaching network, right; until we had you guys, who could, who could fill. Jim Clifton, our CEO for a lot of years, still today, if you put him up against the wall, would say, shouldn't have the 34 report if you don't have a coach.

Jennifer Doyle Vancil 55:46
Yeah, I think you have to have some explanation and understanding about it. Because I think in the world, where we're brought up so much to say, like, focus on your weaknesses and make them better. But through the lens of strengths, your weakness is an overuse of what's high or if you don't have something that's low, it can be a weakness if it gets in your way, but you can compensate with what's high. Unless you have someone to explain that to you, you're probably a little bit at a loss.

Jim Collison 56:14
It's a lot to take in. Lisa says it well. She says, you know, strengths are not skills, right? The Bottom 5 are not things are necessarily bad at. And for, I'm a, I'm a prime example; I have Discipline and Focus in my Bottom 5. And listen, it's, I'm not good at it. I would not make a career, like, you would not want me as your pilot. That's just not, that's not my gig, right. But for these webcasts, and I've done thousands of them, now I have to have incredible focus. Like I have to block out everything else that's going on around me, focus on the chat room and you, right. I have to have it. I have to have the discipline to make sure all the steps get followed to make sure -- from the time I asked you to be on the program, that we get an Eventbrite thing set up, that I get people invited for it.

Jim Collison 56:59
Now, let's be honest, it doesn't always, that's not the smoothest thing. But I've overcome that with systems that help me get through that. So doesn't mean it's a weakness for me. In fact, I'm really proud of the, the, the progress I've made in finding systems to help with my Focus and Discipline. They're Bottom 5 for sure; I'm not gonna make a living off 'em, right, that's not what I'm gonna, that's not what I'm gonna do. Those get me, though, to this point, where the Woo and Communication and Positivity and Individualization and Developer and, right, where all those get to shine as I'm having conversations with you on these things. So I think a really great conversation around that. And, Jennifer, let me ask you the last question here, and we appreciate everybody coming out in this. Anything I missed, or what would you say as some final words as you're encouraging folks in this area? Because we get this question a lot. So thanks for saying, "Yes" to talking about career coaching. But any final thoughts from you?

Jennifer Doyle Vancil 58:00
You know, I think just really encouraging those of you who are integrating strengths in higher ed or into your practices as a coach or into your companies as a manager, that it's not a one-time strengths thing; that you find some ways to integrate it later. And, you know, I'm hopeful that the book can be a reference to help you individualize your, your coaching, your questions, your conversations, but it's not a one-time strengths thing. And so if you are do, you know, if you, if you've integrated into your company, you've had a training or you're doing it in a higher ed classroom, finding some ways to continue to use that. And it may be in training other people in some of the basics of how to have these conversations. So that's something I'm really passionate about, I think, I'm hoping that I can be part of that solution in doing some training for folks that want to continue the strengths efforts.

Jim Collison 58:54
Right on. And it's, it's true in all cases, even if you just bought the book, took the assessment, and you're not using it at work, or you're not in a school environment, you can be, you need to be working on these things privately in your own, in what you're, you know, with your own family, some of those kinds of things. In our case, I mean, I get, I get a daily dose of it. I'm privileged from that standpoint, all the time. But my, my, certainly my daughter has caught on to this. And so we have these conversations all the time, just her and I. And she'd have them with me whether or not I worked at Gallup. That's one of those, one of those kinds of things. So continue. Well, Jennifer, thank you, thank you for taking the time today to, to be a part of this. I think we covered -- it felt deep today. I just think, I appreciate that you just diving in -- the conversation felt deep. Again, Practical Strengths: Career Success -- I put the link to it in Amazon. For folks outside of the United States, what are their options to be able to purchase this? How does that work?

Jennifer Doyle Vancil 59:56
That's a great question. I was in Spain this summer, and I was limited to purchasing 3 at a time. So, so that was really interesting. And then Jo, the author of the series, lives in Mexico, and she said it was a little bit hard for her. So, honestly, if, if you are facing that situation, and you're, and you're hearing this, I will be happy to help you get books. So it's very easy for me to order; they arrive instantly. So if it, if it's a matter of putting 20 in a box and mailing it to you, that apparently is easier for us to do from the United States. We are working with Amazon to make that possible. It's a print-on-demand book. So I think internationally, sometimes that can be a challenge. But most of the time it is available most places. There, Jo was saying it's on Amazon in 11 countries, but not limited to order in Mexico. So that's great. So you can easily get it in Mexico. Maybe, Jo, you can say exactly the right thing. I think you just said the shipping was more expensive, right?

Jim Collison 1:00:56
It's always -- books, physical books, this coming from a from a company that does a lot of physical books, they are super difficult to get around. And, and if you want to listen, there's some more details about the book. We interviewed Jo a month and a half or 2 months ago, and that now is available on the, on the podcast. So if you want to go out and take a look at that, Jo Self, J-O S-E-L-F; sounds just like it's, or it's spelled just like it sounds, is available. And you can go out and listen to that.

Jennifer Doyle Vancil 1:01:28
And I know she's working with Amazon to make that easier. So it's awesome -- 11 countries, you can easily order print-on-demand as many copies as you need. So that's really great.

Jim Collison 1:01:37
Yeah, that print-on-demand is probably the solution, right? Because by the time you ship books, and they sit in the warehouse and some of those kinds of things, so maybe Amazon will solve that problem. Well, Jennifer, hang tight with me for one second. We'll remind everyone to take full advantage of all the resources we do have available on Gallup Access. Head out to gallup.com/cliftonstrengths. If you haven't viewed your report in a while, maybe now's the day. So head, sign in, take a look at that. And you can take a look at that reporting that is there. For coaching, master coaching or to become a Gallup-Certified Strengths Coach, just like Jennifer is, you can send us an email: coaching@gallup.com. We'll get you some information back to you. Stay up to date with all the webcasts by going to gallup.eventbrite.com. Maybe you're listening to this in the podcast, you're like, Oh, I wish I would have been there live, because like 50 of you were, I announce them there and on Eventbrite: gallup.eventbrite.com. Then, of course, join our Facebook group: facebook.com/groups/calledtocoach. Or we do have a Gallup-Trained Coaches LinkedIn site, if you want to head out there. That URL is just not friendly. I mean, I wish LinkedIn would come up with some vanity URL options; they just haven't gotten there yet. But search that or search "CliftonStrengths" on LinkedIn, and you can find us there as well. I want to thank you for joining us today. If you're listening live, thanks for doing that. Great chat room and some great questions. Lisa, your question-asking prowess is in, is in question at the moment. So better, better come back with some more next time. Just kidding. Thanks for coming out. And with that, we'll say, Goodbye, everybody.

Jennifer Doyle Vancil's Top 5 CliftonStrengths are Communication, Connectedness, Maximizer, Woo and Relator.

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