How to Support Your Coaching Clients Effectively: An AMA

Gallup Called to Coach Webcast Series -- Season 9, Episode 58.

Below are audio and video plus a transcript of the conversation, including time stamps.

The CliftonStrengths coaching community has matured in its understanding of strengths over the past 5 years, says Gallup's Dean Jones. And that maturity is seen in the questions coaches are asking. Based on some of these questions, what advice does Dean have about how you can more effectively coach clients who run the gamut from not knowing they need a coach or not having much self-awareness to being someone who has accomplished much in their career and has a large ego? As the calendar brings us into a new year, join Dean and Jim Collison for an hour packed with insightful questions from coaches on effective coaching, the value of taking CliftonStrengths when you are younger, how you can develop your strengths and your coaching in 2022, and more.

CliftonStrengths is like a treasure map. ... It really shows you where to dig. And a treasure map is not the treasure itself. It just points to where the treasure is.

Dean Jones, 15:52

A big piece of ... working with somebody as a coach is starting to gauge, as quickly as possible, where's their self-awareness?

Dean Jones, 12:14

Accomplished people have ... bigger egos than people that haven't produced a lot of results in the world. As a coach, your job is not to dismantle their ego. ... Your job's to include their ego.

Dean Jones, 28:39

What's the benefit of taking the [CliftonStrengths] assessment ... in my late teens versus taking it when I'm a little bit older? The cool part about doing it then is that it really gives you a head start on life.

Dean Jones, 41:01

Jim Collison 0:00
I am Jim Collison, and this is Gallup's Called to Coach, recorded on December 10, 2021.

Introduction to This Episode

Jim Collison 0:18
Called to Coach is a resource for those who want to help others discover and use their strengths. We have Gallup experts and independent strengths coaches share tactics, insights and strategies to help coaches maximize the talent of individuals, teams and organizations around the world. If you're listening live, love to have you join us in our chat room. There's just a link right above me there. It'll take you to YouTube. Sign in and join us in chat. If you're listening after the fact and you have questions, you can always send us an email: coaching@gallup.com. Don't forget to subscribe on your favorite podcast platform so you never miss an episode. Or right there on YouTube, just click the Subscribe button and you'll get notified whenever we go live. Dean Jones is our host today Dean is the Global Talent Development Architect and a Senior Learning Expert for Gallup, as well as the chair of Gallup's Diversity Council. And Dean, it's always a great Friday, it's great to wrap it up, my Friday with you. Welcome back to Called to Coach!

Dean Jones 1:06
Yeah, thanks. This, actually, it's one of my favorite things to do. It's one of my favorite Friday activities is -- when we do Called to Coach, it's always like, I just always look forward to it. You know, it's always fun.

Growth in the Coaching Community

Jim Collison 1:17
It's great. It's, it is a great way to wrap the week. I think a lot of folks listening to Called to Coaches on Fridays, they're ready to wrap the week as well. But I we've kind of gathered an audience here. We've spent some time over the last couple of weeks throwing out this idea of Hey, at the end of the year, what kind of questions do you have? Dean, give us a little -- you saw some of the questions. Give us a little preamble of what you saw that came in. And, and what do you think -- give us a little, how are you feeling about the coaching community just kind of overall, as we kind of come to the end of 2021?

Dean Jones 1:49
Oh, you know, it's, it's great, you know -- gosh, that's such a broad question.

Jim Collison 1:54
It's what I do. I specialize in broad questions.

Dean Jones 1:57
I know, it's good. You know, I, I think, I feel good. I feel like, you know, it sounds funny, but even just looking at the questions this time is, I feel like the community continues to grow. I feel like the community continues to develop mastery. Right. And I, I feel like as we, you know, my, my sense is, as we're at a really different place than we were even 5 years ago, in terms of the Certified Coach community and the support that's in that community, but also the mastery of strengths and the understanding of strengths. And got some really great questions today.

Dean Jones 2:36
And the thing that I like -- I think, you know, even 5 years ago, a lot of the questions were about the themes themselves. And the thing that I like is most of the questions today are about coaching, right? How do I coach? What do I do with clients that are in -- ? So there's a lot of questions about How do I, what do I do in these situations? Or how do I work people in this way? And I think that's a function of the growth of the community. So, you know, I think it's, it's really cool to see people are practicing, people are coaching, practicing as coaches, and they, and encountering all kinds of, of different folks to have an impact on.

Effectively Supporting Your Coaching Clients

Jim Collison 3:14
Some very, very smart questions today. We've, I'll put some of them up on the screen; you'll want to pay close attention on this. These are not gimmes. These are some pretty in-depth questions that you're going to want to listen through. Let's get started. Jasmine Vincent sent us a note really looking to kind of ask the question, the primary question is, How can I be more effective with a client? So she kind of set this up, right. The client's coaching goal: How to develop clarity on career direction. This client is at the mid-senior level and was referred to me by another client. CliftonStrengths: Client has 8 pairs of unlikely pairs in her Top 12 talent themes. And then her challenge is: The client keeps saying, "I don't know." You know, you've asked, as a coach, you've asked these questions, and you think they're smarter; then, the client just defuses them with, "I don't know." We, we didn't get anything out of the 1 1/2-hour session. She didn't exhibit any signs that would warrant a therapist. So the question: How can I effectively support this client in a strengths-based feedback session? Dean?

Dean Jones 4:14
Yeah, I just love this question. I thought this was a great question. And I there's so many pieces of it that I think are good that I want to, that I want to kind of point to. Jasmine's in Singapore, so I know Jasmine isn't listening live. But Jasmine, thanks for this question. It was, when I was kind of looking through, it was like, Wow, this, that's one I, I can really unpack. The thing that I -- I have to be funny first -- the thing that I thought was funny was the comment about this client has 8 pairs of unlikely, has 8 pairs of unlikely paired themes in her Top 12. I thought, I thought, "Oh, yeah, she's broken. That's the problem. She's broken. This is a broken human being." You know what I mean? Too many unlikely pairs will break you. You know, that's just the way it is.

Dean Jones 4:55
So -- no, I'm being funny. I think it's, it's interesting, I always think it's fun and interesting when you coach clients that do have unlikely, unlikely pairs. I'm going to come back to that at the end. But I want to kind of tackle the main thing, which was, you've got a client, you know, Jasmine, I'm gonna, I'm just gonna kind of recap. You got a client referred to you by another, by another client, at the mid-senior level of an organization, looking for clarity on career direction, right. So this is somebody that, you know, is looking for clarity to begin with. And the challenge really is, is that as you're coaching this client, this client keeps saying, "I don't know." Right, and, and Jasmine says, "We didn't get anything out of the 1 1/2-hour session."

Dean Jones 5:39
The thing that I thought was brilliant, Jasmine, is that, is the little comment that you made about, "She didn't exhibit any signs that warrant a therapist." Right? So I thought that was brilliant. Because sometimes, you know, when you've got a client, and you're, you find that you're not making progress, or you're having some difficulty, some, one of the things you want to just be listening for is, is there a wellbeing issue? Right? So is there, is this, does this person really need to be seeing a therapist and not a coach? Or is there a wellbeing issue here that we're not paying attention to, right? And is this person, you know, sometimes, is this person depressed? You know, and there's a difference between being stuck and being depressed. Right? So I think it was great, Jasmine, that you were listening for -- and ruling out -- Hey, there's, you know, this is not, this is not a wellbeing issue; this person's just, just stuck. Right.

Dean Jones 6:31
So here's, I think, you know, as I start to kind of unpack this, there's some things that I think, this may be stuff that you've already done, but things that I would be checking in on with this person. One is, even though this person is at the mid-senior level, one is that, and even though they were referred to you, we might need to start from scratch and sort of reestablish the agreement to be coached. So one is, I would be looking and seeing, you know, one of the things you could do is kind of take a step back and say -- and sometimes I like to do this in the beginning -- is, "Have you ever worked with a coach before?" Right? And "Tell me about those experiences. What, what was the coach like? What was the experience of working with the coach like?" Like that.

Dean Jones 7:17
Sometimes people have not worked with a coach before. Right? And so they don't have any kind of context for the work you're going to do. So what ends up happening is, is they think that they're there, and you're just going to tell them what to do. You know what I mean? It's like, "Oh, no, that's not how this works," right? Or, you know, it's like, you're gonna, they're gonna, they're going to present their problem, and then you're going to solve the problem, and we're all going to go live happily ever after. Right? That's, that's not the way that this works, right. And they don't have the, they don't have the understanding or the expectation that, in fact, that they're going to have to generate a lot in this coaching relationship, in order to kind of tackle the work that you're going to do together.

Dean Jones 7:58
So one is, I would just, you know, sometimes it's just nice to kind of take a step back and say, "Hey, tell me about -- have you ever worked with a coach before? What was that like? What was the coach like? What was the experience of working with them like?" Just kind of get some basic kind of information about that? I think that's helpful in the beginning, right?

Dean Jones 8:17
The other piece is, is, you may need to do a little work around what ICF would call kind of the coaching contract. Like, like to be able to kind of frame up how we're going to work together. And particularly if this is somebody's going to work with over time, "Here's how this is going to work," you know. So one is that we're really going to kind of frame up, "What, what do you want to accomplish out of this? What are you, what, you know, why are you here? What's, why are you here? What is, what is our conversation, what are our conversations going to be about? Here's how I work as a coach." And even simple stuff, like, "Look, I'm going to, I'm going to ask you a bunch of questions, right? And we're going to kind of explore this together." And so I think sort of setting up of the relationship may be some of what you need to do before you kind of jump into it. OK.

Dean Jones 9:05
The other thing -- and this is really a simple thing, though, and it seems like an obvious thing, but -- sometimes, sometimes people will, you know, they've hired a coach; they start seeing a coach, but they're not coachable. I mean, it sounds funny to say, but they're not really coachable. Right. And so it's, so they, their relationship to coaching is, "You're going to give me advice or something," right? And, and so part of what I think is valuable is to be able to talk to them and say, "Hey, look, are, are you willing to be coached? I just want to ask you, 'Hey, are you willing to be coached?'" Right? So, and coaching is really about trying, you know, like, "I'm going to have you look at some stuff, or we're, I'm going to ask you some questions. You know, I'm not gonna, I'm not gonna, it's not like I'm going to ask you a question and you're going to get the answer right or not. Right. I'm going to ask you a question, but I'm going to ask you to really try some stuff, right, and try some stuff on. And in fact, we're gonna have to have you go experiment with some of these things, and then come back and report." Right? So I think it's setting all that up, right?

Diagnosing, Coaching Clients With Low Self-Awareness

Dean Jones 10:13
So you may say, Jasmine may, may go, "Hey, listen, I've done all that. That was great," right? There's two other things that could be at work here, Jasmine, if, if this person's worked with a coach, understands how to work with coach, that's great. You got to, you, you really set up the relationship, that's great. There's, there's two other things that could be going on when somebody, on a repeated basis, says, "I don't know." One is, I would take a person at their word, right? They literally, they, I don't think, you know, sometimes, sometimes you get concerned that somebody is being resistant, but I would really take a person at their word -- that they really don't know. And in this case, they may have really low self-awareness.

Dean Jones 10:51
And in fact, that's part of your job as a coach is to start to kind of work with them, relative to low self-awareness -- they may not just really have any sense of, of who they are and where they want to go. And strengths is magical for people like that. But it really, you really have to start, even though this person is, is an accomplished person -- they're at the mid-senior level of, of an organization -- they, that doesn't, that doesn't mean that they don't have low self-awareness. And you may have to really start to work with them at a really basic level about understanding their natural talent and really helped it, really start working that through, through with them, right.

Dean Jones 11:28
The other thing that may be out there -- and I just, I'm just throwing this out -- you typically don't see it with highly accomplished people, but every once in a while you do: Is this person may have really limited agency or autonomy. Right? That sometimes you get people who really are, that their relationship with the world is their, is that who they are is a function of their circumstances. Right. And so they have very limited agency. They've got very limited ability to be, to, to be, to be an agent of their own destiny, if you will, or a limited ability to operate autonomously, right? They really are, they really are reacting a lot to their circumstances. And so that could be going on as well. So I think you got to listen for that. You know, as coaches, a big piece of coaching, working with somebody as a coach is starting to gauge, as, as quickly as possible, where's their self-awareness? Do they have good self-awareness? Where am I starting with? You know, what's the, what's the baseline level of self-awareness that we're working with here?

Jim Collison 12:32
Coming off center when they don't have that self-awareness is, is really hard. I mean, it, because it's, you know, you're trying to get there and see some things, and they're just not wanting to participate, you know, at that point. And I think sometimes that can be a real challenge. Dean, any, like, if, you know, if you come across that person, self-awareness, struggling with self-awareness, is there any, any, anything we can do to help broaden? I mean, are there some activities or some things we can do to kind of broaden that out and help with that?

Dean Jones 13:03
Oh, yeah, of course. So I mean, that's where we start with strengths, right? Strengths is, is just such a phenomenal self-awareness tool. So, but, but really, we got to do some of the basic work in strengths, where we start from, "Let's, let's go through your report together. And let's, and it may be that you're working them through, you got to, you got to manage the pace of it, that it's both methodical enough that you're doing real work with them, but it's fast enough that they feel like they're making progress. But doing some really fundamental work that they understand their talent themes; they can see them in their life; they, they understand how they start to, they can start to become aware of how they're using them to produce results. So really starting to, they, you know, there's another question here that we'll get to, but that they they're, they're claiming the themes that they're really, that are really dominant themes for them, not claiming themes that they don't have. So, you know, there's some fundamental work that we got, we just got to do.

Dean Jones 14:00
The, the piece that I think is so critical for us as coaches is, you know, sometimes you have a client you're really excited to work with. And you get in there and you realize, like, "Oh, yeah, this person has really low self-awareness. And we got some work to do, right." And you can't go as fast as you want to go. You know, part of it as being a coach is you just, you have to accept exactly who the client is and who they're not. You have to accept where they're at -- exactly where they're at. Right? And you got to work from where they're at. You can't work from where you want them to be or where you think they should be; you got to work from where's the client at now? And if you start to resist where the client is at, it creates friction in the relationship. And so you gotta, it's where you got to start to fall in love with your client and, and start working on, working just right, right exactly where they're at.

Coaching Clients Who Think Presence of Talent = Strength

Jim Collison 14:48
I think that transitions nicely into Cheryl Pace's question. She says, How do you respond to people who insist their Top 5 are already strengths because of the name of the assessment? And it's like "Duh, these are my Top 5," right? And then, I know many people who have a difficult time determining their dominant themes. Some think all 34 are dominant, right? I mean, again, this is kind of the opposite, or well, same, same idea. What's your favorite activity to help people with, you know --

Dean Jones 15:17
With this?

Jim Collison 15:17
With, yeah, with this.

Dean Jones 15:19
Let's go back to the first part of the question, because I want to, how do you respond to people who insist their Top 5 are already strengths because of the name of the assessment? First of all, this is funny. "See, it says right here -- it's CliftonStrengths. Therefore, these are my strengths," you know, or, "Hey, I read the book StrengthsFinder, therefore, these are my strengths," right? So what is, you know, the, you know, the funny thing I think about this, you know, it's kind of like -- and I use this analogy a lot. But you know, CliftonStrengths is like a treasure map, right? And it really shows you where to dig, right? And a treasure map is not the treasure itself, right? It just points to where the treasure is, right? When you get a treasure map, that's not, that's not the treasure, right? People don't retire on the treasure map; they retire on the treasure, right.

Dean Jones 15:31
So it's, just like that, CliftonStrengths really shows you where to invest. Right? It shows you what are the talent themes that you need to that where you, where you need to start to go to invest? Right. So I think it's helping people to understand that.

Dean Jones 16:28
One, one thing that I do is, I make sure that people are clear about the difference between talent and strengths. And I really lean into the definition of a strength. So we know that when, the way we define strengths, and, and you know, at Gallup, we're researchers, right, so we got a, we got a definition that we use. A strength is consistent, near-perfect results in a particular area. So one of the things I think that is helpful -- and this is helpful with the other part of your question, Cheryl -- is, is I think it's helpful that people know what a strength is, right? So that they can point to, Hey, where is consistent, where are you producing consistent, near-perfect results? That, that is important to know, right? Are you using your Achiever to produce consistent, near-perfect results? Where do we see that, right, in your life, those consistent, near-perfect results? And what strengths or talents are you using to be able to do that? Right? So again, this is kind of a self-awareness question.

Dean Jones 17:33
The other part of the question was, I know many people have a difficult time determining their dominant themes; some think all 34 are dominant. That, again, it's sort of a self-awareness question. There's a difference between understanding a theme and having awareness of a theme. So sometimes -- it sounds funny, but -- you get people and they understand the theme. But they, you know, if you ask them then, "OK, now, you're telling me that you're using this theme, even though it's your No. 20, right?"

Dean Jones 18:03
And I've had this before. You know, like, I was coaching a client who was a senior executive, executive with an organization, and she said, she said to me, "I think I've got all 34." You know, I'm like, "OK, good. Let's start there." You know, "Let's, and let's look at where exactly -- you may understand all 34. But let's really look at where you're actually using your talents to be able to produce results, so that you have consistent, near-perfect results in a particular area." And the kind of questions I like to ask is, that start to get at that, right, are, are is to help people start, help people understand, "Hey, tell me when you've used that strength. And tell me when you have used that strength, not just, not just where you've exhibited that talent theme, but where you've used it to produce a result." OK.

Dean Jones 18:56
So remember when Don Clifton was, was doing the research and creating CliftonStrengths, it was based on a study of success. It's based on a study of excellence. It was about, it was not just, this is not, these are not personality traits, right? What these are, are, these are pathways to excellence. So the intent of this is not just to characterize people; the intent of this is to give people access to using their talent in a meaningful way to produce results. Right? So asking people, "Great! So let's talk about those, those talent themes. Tell me when, a time when you've used that talent theme to produce a result. Let's talk about that." Right.

Dean Jones 19:41
The other thing that is useful is to say, "Hey, what are, what, if we, if we interviewed the people around you, what are the themes that they notice when you go to produce a result?" Right? So what are the things, how would people describe you when they go to produce result? OK, you know, you've got a sense of urgency. You're great about getting us into action. Right? You've got, you bring a lot of energy. And in fact, you energize the people around you. Yeah, I can hear you using your Activator to be able to produce results, right? So we can claim that one. The thing we got to remember is, is, is when we, in strengths development it's about, Name it, Claim it and Aim it. OK. And there's no accident that "Claim it's" right, sandwiched right in the middle there. Naming it is really about that understanding. Claiming it is really being able to appreciate and become aware of our strengths.

Dean Jones 20:38
And part of, it's a big part of strengths development, that people know what strengths to claim, what talent themes really to claim and what ones not to claim. And it is, it's, it's indicative of low self-awareness when people claim strengths that they don't have. It's not -- they're not bad people, right? It just means, Hey, we got, we don't, we need to sharpen up the, turn up the dial on the awareness a little bit to understand, What are we really using as talent themes and which ones we're not really using? Right?

Clients Who Need a Coach but Don't Know It

Jim Collison 21:09
Dean, there's a kind of a follow-up, and maybe you can help me pronounce Florence's last name -- I'd say Metallurgie. But I'm sure I'm, I'm sure I'm, so Florence, I hope I at least got that close. She said, Oftentimes in workshops, when we come to the Aim it part -- and I think this is a tag to what you were just saying -- people feel stuck and say, "I already do this. I already use this theme. I can't see anything new." What can be an effective group coaching strategy when, when we get some feedback like that?

Dean Jones 21:40
Yeah, I think that's actually good news, right? Sounds funny. But you know, this, this is, when people say, "Hey, I already do this," or "Hey, I really understand that. But I'm not sure how to invest in this talent theme," or "I'm not sure how I should actually go to work on this." What, basically, people are saying is, "I need a coach," right. And so as coaches, we should say, "I'm here!" right? "I'm here; I'm trained. This is what I do. I help people start with the you know, develop an understanding of their strengths, but start to really apply them in a meaningful way in your life to produce the kind of results that you want to produce in your life." So I think when we hear that, well, that, should be good news for us, we should say, "Wow, OK, great. I'm here. I'm here. This is what I do. Let me help." Right. And so I think typically with this, so put the question up again, if you would, Jim. You know, so Cheryl said -- no, this is Florence.

Jim Collison 22:41
This is Florence. Yeah.

Dean Jones 22:41
This is, yeah, based on Cheryl's question, right. So oftentimes in workshops when people come to the Aim part, people feel stuck and say, "I already do this. I already use this theme. I can't see anything new." What can be effective group coaching strategies? One thing that I, that typically, when people are in this situation, it means that -- as funny as it sounds -- they got a limited understanding of their talent themes. This is always a sign I, when I hear this, typically, this is a sign to me that people have a limited understanding of the talent themes that are their dominant talent themes.

Dean Jones 23:15
So they've, and you see this, you see this a lot where, when people develop their, when people start to develop their understanding of their talent themes, they lock in on one or two traits, right? "Oh, I'm Achiever. I like to work hard, or I like to produce results. That's what Achiever means," right? And they don't -- we know, as coaches, that when you unpack each one of those talent themes, there's many, many, many, many traits, many patterns of thought, feeling or behavior that are, that are packed into every one of those talent themes. Right? But when you've got somebody who's stuck like this, a lot of times, it's like, "Oh, I'm high in Competition. I want to win." Right? And that's all they know.

Dean Jones 23:57
So part of the work to do here, I think, is, is, one is, have them go back and sort of unpack those themes, so that they really start to understand all the dimensions in the theme. Because then they start to see stuff that they didn't see stuff before. One of the coolest insights people can have when you're coaching them is when they realize, they recognize a pattern of behavior that they have, but that they see how it's connected to their own talent themes, to their strengths, right?

Dean Jones 24:27
So funny, I just had this funny experience, where a funny experience -- this is a number of years ago, but -- my husband kept saying to me, you know, we'd be talking about something, and I, he'd, I'd say, he'd, we were having a conversation and he said, "Why do you always do that thing?" And I'm like, "What's thing?" He said, he said, "You do that thing where you say, where you say, 'Well, what if this happens? Well, what if that happens? Well, what, what if this happens?'" He's like, you know, my husband who's high in Positivity, right? None of those things are gonna happen. Right? You know, he's like, "It's all good." You know, my husband is like, "It's all gonna turn out."

Jim Collison 25:00
It's gonna be fine.

Dean Jones 25:01
"Why are we even talking about this? It's all gonna be great." Right? So, but I realized, like, that's my Strategic talent, right? That's my Strategic, and I never saw -- as funny as it sounds now, in retrospect -- I never saw that that's, that was my Strategic talent kind of working its way through, right. And that that's how I think is, you know, with my Strategic talent, I, I'm thinking through all the options and all the pathways for us to be able to get there. So my point is, is, as we start to see all the dimensions, all the patterns of thought, feeling or behavior that are packed into a theme, we start to see more of the theme, the impact of that theme in our life, and it gives us more of a platform there. It's also -- for you, as a coach -- easier to coach somebody then, because there's more opportunities to talk with them about how they can start to invest in that theme, you know.

Dean Jones 25:03
So it's not just, they aren't just like one note. You know, it's the difference between playing -- I'm gonna use a musical analogy, but -- playing a piano and playing a recorder, right. With a recorder. It's like, there's 3 or 4 notes, right? Or -- this is my limited musical understanding, OK? But with a recorder, you know, you got, you got 4 or 5 notes, right? With a piano, you got all, you got 88 keys, right. So, and so, you know, once we start to unpack those themes, we got lots more to work with. And usually, Florence, my experience is, as we start to unpack that, then people have more to work with, they see more in their life, and we can start to then work with them about how they can start to invest in that theme and develop that theme, so that it becomes a meaningful strength for them.

Coaching Accomplished People and Their Egos

Jim Collison 26:44
Alison Schiena asked a question through the Facebook group earlier: When you're coaching senior leaders who are high in Command or Self-Assurance, and they avoid the self-reflective process -- maybe going back to what we talked about before -- to overcome blind spots and try to turn it into information gathering. And they haven't necessarily "elected" to do any of the coaching and their CEO hasn't outlined -- this sounds very specific -- outlined what they want the senior leader to achieve. I mean, talk a little bit about that.

Dean Jones 27:14
Yeah, I mean, this is one of those questions that's very specific. You, because you feel like, it's like, you're gonna, the question's gonna end with, "and their name is ____." You know what I mean? You know, it's like, it's like, How do I deal with this person? Right? I think, so first of all, it's, first of all, I think we got to start with -- Alison, this is a great question. So first of all, thank you for this question. This is great. So it's not so much about the Command or Self-Assurance, right. We got to remember that those are talent themes, not necessarily personality traits, right. And so I think you got to separate, you know, there are people that are high Command, right, and, and, and exhibit that kind of, that kind of, you know, they exhibit that kind of wanting to be clear, you know. We all know the characteristics of somebody that, that leads with a lot of Command, right? They like to, they like to come in and provide clarity. They, they, sometimes they can be a little black-and-white about stuff. I'm saying this gently, because I'm Command No. 10, right, you know, and Self-Assurance No. 11.

Dean Jones 28:16
So, the, I think it's more a function of, Alison, coaching accomplished people, right? Every time you coach leaders, every time you coach people that are accomplished, part of what you're going to encounter is their ego. And as a coach, we just have to know that, we just have to know that accomplished people have egos. And in fact, they've got bigger egos than people that haven't produced a lot of results in the world. And as a coach, your job is not to dismantle their ego. In fact, your job's to include their ego -- you got to give space to their ego. That's part of who they are. It's part of being a big result producer is you got, you got people with big egos. So you got to be able to work with their ego.

Dean Jones 29:05
And you see really great executive coaches -- we've got a lot of just great executive coaches at Gallup; people like Jacque Merritt or Andrew Green or Vibhas Ratanjee. You know, we've got these, these great, great, great executive coaches. And when you see them work with, with, with leaders, they know how to intervene without attacking somebody's ego, right? And in fact, you got to get good, if you want to work with leaders (not everybody wants to, right?), but you got to get good at working and including that ego without attacking that ego. That if you start to get into an argument with their ego, it's all over. You're never gonna be able to coach them. Right?

Dean Jones 29:49
But if you can include their ego and work with their ego, then -- without, without feeling like you have to punish them for their ego or prick their ego -- if you can do that, you, you can be really successful. Part of, we know, one of the fundamentals of adult learning is that adults bring a body of knowledge and experience, right? Part of the fun, I think, and the joy of teaching adults versus teaching kids, right -- and I'm a guy who loves teaching adults -- is that they're, it's not, they're not tabula rasa; they're not like a blank slate. They are, they come and they've got knowledge and they've got experiences. And the more they've accomplished in the world, the more knowledge and experiences they're going to bring.

Dean Jones 30:34
And if you, if you love that, and if you're willing to work with that, that becomes the fun of coaching somebody who's a leader, is they, they're always trying it on and saying, Hey, how does that relate to this other piece of knowledge that I've got? Or, Hey, I've studied this, or I've read this, and I want to understand how that all fits together. Or, Hey, I'm mapping that on my experience; it doesn't jive with what my experience has been. You got to, you got to include all that; you can't resist all that. You got to include all that as part of coaching them. So, so, you know, so first of all, there's that piece: You got to include their ego. Then, I think the work, Alison, to do with this client is, I think you got to take a step back. So, Jim, put up the second part of the question.

Dean Jones 31:22
Yeah, and they haven't necessarily elected to do the coaching. And their CEO hasn't outlined what they want the senior leader to achieve. Here's some of the things I, I would do if it were me, right. One is I take a step back, right? And I'd make sure that you've had a conversation with them about What do they, what do they want to accomplish in, in coaching? And the kind of questions you can ask are questions like, you know, "What do you want to accomplish here?" Sometimes you ask a question, this is, can be a little, kind of a provocative question. But, "Why do you think you're here?" Right. "So the CEO wanted to make sure that you and other leaders had coaching. Why do you think that is? What do you, why do you think that that CEO wanted to make coaching available? What was, what was that person trying to accomplish?" Right?

Dean Jones 32:07
And then, I think for, for leaders, particularly, it's, it's, it's helpful for them to know, it's helpful for you to know and to create with them, "What do you want to get out of this process?" And part of it might be them sharing what they think they want to get out of this process. Part of it might be sharing what you think is possible out of this process for them. So sometimes people are good at being able to create that for themselves. Some people, sometimes people just don't know, and part of your job as a coach is creating that. Right.

Dean Jones 32:37
One of the cool things about working with leaders is the coaching is oftentimes oriented around advancement. It's really leadership development; it's really, it's not about, Am I doing my job or not doing my job? You know, which can be a little immediate, right. And one of the cool things is helping them develop capacities that help them really go the distance as a leader. And that's one of the cool things I think that is fun -- for people that do leadership coaching and love leadership coaching, I think that's part of it is how are we developing those capacities? Right? One of the things I would do, you know, I'd have that conversation.

Dean Jones 33:18
And then one of the things you might do with this person is ask them to go interview some people. So ask them to go have some conversations with colleagues. They might go interview the CEO and say, "Hey, what do you think is possible for me out of this? Why did you think we should do this? Help, help me to understand what you think is available for me here." And I think if you, now there's a whole technique to how you set up those interviews. One is you gotta, you can't just grab somebody in the hallway and do this, right? You have to set it up. You have to tell people, "Hey, I'm working on my development." You have to have them tell people, "I'm working on my development. I want to ask you some direct questions. I, you know, I'll keep your answers in confidence. And I promise, no matter what you say, I'm going to use it to empower myself." You know, so you got to really set up the interview so you get really good feedback.

Dean Jones 34:08
But when, the part of the thing that's really powerful is when they're the person asking for the feedback, right? It helps them to be able to manage and control the feedback, which usually is, is much more comfortable. And they start to be able to gather that kind of feedback and can, can use the coaching conversation to make sense of it. So Alison, that's, that's my two cents. That's, I think the direction that I might go around that.

Coaching Those Who Don't Appreciate Their Own Strengths

Jim Collison 34:33
Dean, I think, sometimes we think that ego is specific to leaders. But when we think about high-achieving individual contributors, right, sometimes we don't see them as leaders, and yet they are very strong leaders in organizations. And Cheryl had asked this question, let me just kind of squeeze this in from the chat room. She says, How do you approach a situation where the client doesn't like their Top 5 or have "strengths envy"? I see this or hear this from coaches who are working with engineers, or they're working with statisticians, or they're working with highly Analytical folks, and they kind of come at this and go, "You can't tell me anything about this, because I don't, I don't like any of these things."

Dean Jones 35:13
Yeah. I mean, part of it is, I think you got to get to why. It's, it's an interesting thing, I think sometimes you, you deal with people that have been very shaped by their environment that they should be a particular way -- and, and that they should be a particular way. And that they, and as a result, they look at their, they look at their talent themes through this lens of who they should be, rather than who they are. And it could be -- you know, it sounds funny, but it could be growing up, you know, their parents or other mentors that they had growing up, a coach they had or a teacher they had told them they should be a particular way. Or they get into an environment -- we know every organization has a culture, and the culture pulls for something.

Dean Jones 36:01
You should, you know, like, if you're in sales, you know, and particularly if you're in sales, like, in a high-tech company, you know, those are very competitive environments. So if you're not competitive, it's like, something's wrong with you, right, and you should be competitive. I always tell the story about a leader I was working with many years ago, and he got Empathy. You know, when he got his report, and there was Empathy in his Top 5. And he was really upset. Because he didn't want, he didn't want anybody that he worked with -- he worked in a real competitive organization, a very hard-driving kind of organization -- he didn't want any of his colleagues to know that he had Empathy in his Top 5, because he was afraid that he would be perceived as weak. And so I think, you know, with that, you got to help -- first of all, you got to find out like, a little bit of like, like, where did that come from? Like, what, what do you think you should be? Like that. It almost doesn't matter, you know, like, trying to go backwards and resolve that, you know, that's therapy, right?

Dean Jones 36:58
I think for, for, in coaching, you want to help people to embrace the themes that they've got, because the truth is, they're expressing those themes. I don't know why I had to whisper. But, you know, the truth is, they're really expressing those themes, right? And we know that they're expressing those themes right now. You know, it's not --

Jim Collison 37:18
Don't let -- do it so they can't hear you say this.

Dean Jones 37:20
Yeah, shhh! We're just gonna say this really quietly, OK. Cause that's who they are. Otherwise, it wouldn't showed up in the report. Right. So we know they're expressing those themes. And we, but we also know that they think they should be someone else. And, and part of our job is to help them fall in love with who they are. Right. And so, that, that's, that's part of the piece there, you know.

Changes in Your CliftonStrengths Results as You Mature?

Jim Collison 37:44
Let's shift gears a little bit. Dan Donavan had sent in a question. And he says, If our talent themes stabilize, or become hard-coded, as we gain more life experiences, aren't the results for high school and college students more likely to change as they get older? And he has a part 2 to this question. I'll bring it up now; we can bring it back up again. But so, so if so, what's the value of taking the assessment at a younger age? Is it perhaps to become aware of their dominant talents and leveraging them at the moment in their lives?

Dean Jones 38:14
Ah, great, great questions, Dan.

Jim Collison 38:16
Dan Donovan.

Dean Jones 38:17
Yeah, Dan. So Dan, the first piece, let's talk about the first piece. If our talent themes stabilize at, or hard-code, as we gain more life experience, aren't the results for high school and college students more likely to change as they get older? Ah, not so much, right? So here's kind of how this works. And if you, if you study human development, I know enough about human, human development to be dangerous here, right? I'm passionate about it. I read a lot about it. I've studied it, you know, so I know enough to be dangerous here. But typically, what, what's happening as, as you, when you're young, as you grow, you, you, you have a series of experiences or a series of crises that kind of gel, and your, that starts, start to form your identity. And your identity starts to gel when you're like 16, 17. Right? So usually like in your late teens, in the late teen area is where your identity gels, right. Now, sometimes it gels a little earlier; sometimes it gels a little later. It's, everybody's different, right. But typically in that thing, that's when your identity starts to solidify.

Dean Jones 39:26
And we know that it's hard to measure strengths -- talent themes -- before then; that's why we have StrengthsExplorer, the Clifton StrengthsExplorer, right, is to, with, that's got fewer themes and they're broader themes, right. Gives us sort of a early read on the direction that somebody's talent is going. But once somebody's identity has gelled, pretty much what we start to see is those talent themes are, are pretty fixed, right? They're not -- we used to say, gosh, I don't know, I started at Gallup like 16 years ago -- 15-16 years ago, we used to say that, Hey, they were fixed, and that was it, right? And then what we started to notice as we were studying it is, in fact, they continue to evolve, but it was like the difference between a rushing river and the way a glacier moves, right? Like, once they get fixed, they keep evolving, but they move a little bit more like a glacier. Right?

Dean Jones 40:22
Every once in a while, there's a life experience that shakes things up. But for the most part, it's the same themes, and they sort of, they sort of evolve in the same way, right? And everybody's, by the way, mesmerized about, Hey, if I take strengths again, will my themes change? And what does that mean? And da-da-da. And the truth is, for the most part, your themes may shuffle around a little bit, but it's basically the same, it's basically you. So the, the, the truth is, is that fundamentally, in your late teens, when you, once your identity is kind of solidified, you do CliftonStrengths, that's, that's your talent set that you're working with.

The Value of Knowing Your Strengths Early in Life

Dean Jones 40:58
Now, the second part of the question is, What's the benefit, then, of taking the assessment at a younger age? Why, why would I take it in my late teens versus taking it when I'm a little bit older? I think that the, the cool part about doing it then is, is that it really gives you a head start on life. There's a lot of people in life that spend the better part of their life trying to figure out what they're good at. There's a lot of people trying to figure out, Where am I naturally gifted? And if you can get the answers to the test early, I think, man, that really helps. I think, particularly for teens, for people in their late teens and 20s, I think it really helps your self-esteem, by the way. I think it really helps give you a sense of self-worth to know I have talent, and I am valuable, and I contribute. And I think that that's a lot of the, the benefit.

Dean Jones 41:56
You know, I'm a guy that loves to -- it's so funny, I was coaching a guy that, that's on my team. He's a young guy, he's on my team, he's 22. And we were talking about saving, right, and I was kind of coaching him about saving, you know. And, and, and, you know, I, you know, I was all revved up about compound interest, you know, that financial principle that you start saving your interest-free, and you get the benefit of all the compound interest that accumulates. I think it's kind of the same way with knowing your strengths early. It's like you get compound interest on your strengths, right? You get a head start on life, because you don't spend 10 or 20 years trying to figure out who am I and what I'm good at. You get insight right away to who you are and, and, and what your gifts are and ways that you contribute that are really meaningful. And so I think that's a, I think that's the reason to have people do that early.

Jim Collison 42:51
Super helpful if you actually unmute. When I was --

Dean Jones 42:55
I thought it was me.

Jim Collison 42:56
No, I just rebooted. So I got the sound back, Cheryl Pace. No, I'm just kidding. So when I was 17, joining the military, I took the ASVAB test, which is a skills-based assessment that kind of tells you what you're good at from a, from a career kind of standpoint. It is a, it's, it's a, I don't know how valid it is from a career assessment. But it told me that my, my very bottom was mechanical, like, engineering kind of things, like fixing things. And I wish someone, when I was 17 -- and the very top one was technology, by the way, it was technology. So they said, you know, so a recruiter looked at me and said, "Well, what do you want to do?" And I said, "Well, I guess I'm not very good at being a mechanic. So maybe I should learn to be a better mechanic." Like, why wouldn't I use this time to be a better mechanic? Now, in the end, it kind of paid off; it helped me be a better mechanic. I never did it as a job, and I shouldn't, because I shouldn't be trusted around tools -- let's just be really clear about this, right.

Jim Collison 43:55
But if someone had said to me in, in those days, "Hey, you've got this propensity for technology" -- I didn't know it yet; I mean, I kind of did, but I didn't know it -- and directed me in that way. I think this is similar, right, with teens when we did this internship program at Gallup, and we had a, we had them all take CliftonStrengths, and we could coach them on a weekly basis going through their Top 5 and stuff. Wow, what a privilege it was to have insight into that and let them experience that in their own context. We were mixing career exploration with this idea of their Top 5. And it's super powerful at that age. If it changes when they're 26 or 27, let it change; it's OK, right, it's OK. It's, I think, sometimes we, we want to just nail that thing down, Dean, and say, "It's got -- no, it has to be this way for --" Well, OK, we, you know, we grow. We grow in this. So --

Dean Jones 44:47
Yeah, I think you know, it's so funny. It made me think, you know, when I was in high school, you know, I was a senior in high school, and the guidance counselor had me take a career assessment test. And the career assessment test said the two careers that I was best suited for were, was nursing home director or grain elevator operator. And I'm not 100% sure -- to this day, I, literally, how are those two things related to one another? And what, what did they see in me that said, These are your career, this is your path, Dean. Right.

Dean Jones 45:18
To your point, you know -- and maybe this goes to Florence's other question that she asked us -- but she, you know, I was thinking about a gal that I work with now that I've been, I've been coaching. And, you know, she came to us, she came to us at Gallup. And she's kind of a mid-career person. And one of the things I noticed working with her is I, you know, I'd talk with her, and I'd ask her questions, and she'd give me kind of, like, one-, one-, one-word answers, right. And then I got her CliftonStrengths, and she's like, Communication No. 5. And I was like, What is going on? And I realized, like, somebody -- up to the point that she came to Gallup, and somebody started saying to her, "No, we want you to be, we want the full expression of your talents and strengths," right? Somebody was trying to put her in a box, right, that had nothing to do with her talents and strengths. And a lot of the coaching I've given her is, How do we take the lid off that Communication? How do we get her to trust her voice? How do we get her to be a full expression of her talents and strengths?

Dean Jones 46:18
And so I think, you know, to Dan's question and then Florence's question, right? You know, you get people like that, and, and, you know, the world's trying to make you be a particular way. And when you got an anchor like, Hey, I know what my talent is; I know who I am. And it gives you a place to stand in who you are, and the contribution that you are, so you can go make a difference in the world. And so that's why I think it's so powerful.

Developing Talents Into Strengths: Real-World Examples

Jim Collison 46:46
Florence's question, just for our folks on audio, is about sharing some real-life examples of talents becoming strengths. And listen, my career Gallup is one of those -- Dean, I talk about this all the time -- it's one of those living examples of, you know, starting as an IT manager, but slowly working through recruiting and then getting a chance to do this webcasting and being coached by you in this. I mean, you and I have been doing this thing from the very beginning. And you've been coaching me along with this of, Hey, do this and do that. And I, you know, we work together on this. And I think it's a, it's a great, it's a perfect real-life example of taking Woo and Communication and finding a home for them. And then, and then allowing, you know, that, the, the Arranger-Maximizer just allows me to be, to continue to hone these skills, to continue to get better at it. Right? And it's just a living -- for me, it's just a living example of what happens when you are able to, in my case, do a little bit of job crafting to get into this, this kind of role. And so that's, I think there's an example there. Any other, Dean, any other examples?

Dean Jones 47:50
I'm like, I laughed at this question. I put this last because, Florence, with no, you know, I'm sorry. I, I am so, you know, I have Futuristic; I have Strategic; I have Focus. I think about the future all the time. I have the worst memory. And, you know, people ask me, you know, you know, "What'd you have for dinner last night?" I can barely remember, right. I'm like, so I'm the worst at being able to, I was trying to wrack my brain thinking of all these stories. And I know I've got stories, but I, you know, I'm horrible being able to talk about them. You know? So I think, go ahead.

Jim Collison 48:24
Yeah, well, no, I, Dean, I think -- and for, we spend a lot of time on Called to Coach with these stories. Like, if you listen to the success stories that we do, imbedded in them are so many great stories of this happening. I mean, we have -- this year alone -- probably 20, I'm gonna say 24 or 25 success stories that are just testimonies of folks saying this. And a resource for you to go back and hear, not just from us, but these are from individuals who've gone through this experience at all different levels, in all different kinds of organizations, big and small; all different parts of the world, from India to Australia to the U.K. to Africa to, to, you know, to the Middle East. There's just some, there's some great opportunities in that. We, we've done a, we just did a campaign where we asked the coaches like, "Hey, how has this changed your life?" And we got all these stories back that we've been sharing on social. So some great stories out there. Maybe, do you think we got time for one more question coming from the chat room?

Dean Jones 49:27
Yeah, let's do it, let's, yeah.

A CliftonStrengths Business Strategy

Jim Collison 49:28
George says, More of a sales question. But two of my best friends are CEOs with hundreds of employees, not sure how to best pursue a business relationship. They've taken CliftonStrengths, appreciate its value. How do we take the next step? What's that look like?

Dean Jones 49:43
I, well, so one is I'd, I'd ask, and I'd ask them, "Hey, look, I'd love to have a conversation with you. I know we're friends. I'd love to have a conversation about how you might use this in business, in your business. Are you open to that?" Right? Like, so let's make sure that we're, we're, you know, we're separating our domain. We got our friendship domain, and I know that you've taken CliftonStrengths. I'd love to help you use this in your business. Would you be interested in the conversation around that? They may say, "Hey, yes," or they may say, "Not now."

Dean Jones 50:13
But one is I would set it up; I'd get permission to have that conversation. The piece that, George, if they say, "Sure, you know, I'd love to, to talk about this" -- I think that you want to be able to talk about CliftonStrengths as a business strategy, rather than as a personal development tool. That's the piece that I think you got to, sometimes I think people make the mistake that, where they say, "Hey, you've done CliftonStrengths. I've coached you. You've gotten lots of insights, you know, like, now let's talk about the impact it has on your company. What if everybody had that?" That's great. But hey, you know, you got to be able to deal with, as a, with somebody as a business leader, what's in it for them? And so you got to talk about CliftonStrengths as a business strategy.

Dean Jones 50:59
Really, the business strategy behind CliftonStrengths is, is, What if you hired people, helped them to understand their talent and invest in the development of that talent so that they get, get better and better at being able to apply their talent in meaningful way, so that they could produce consistent, near-perfect results, right? If you've got them -- this is The Gallup Path in a nutshell, right? But if you can harness that talent; get people in a job that's the right fit for them; equip them with a coach who's a manager who's a great coach; and keep them engaged, that that, that becomes a really meaningful business strategy for an organization. That's how you generate organic growth. And so you've got to be able to have that conversation with somebody. You know, so it's not, not just a personal development conversation, but it's the conversation about how it gets applied to be able to, to deliver bottom-line business results. And so that's probably another, another session. But that's another, another podcast session, but --

Coaching in 2022: Your Personal, Professional Development

Jim Collison 52:05
Write it down. Like we -- add it to the slate for 2022. Speaking of 2022, a question from, from Jim: As you think about coaching in this new, this, you know, we always were saying, "When things get back to normal," and there's no getting back to normal, right. And as we look ahead to 2022, for coaches, for, you know, this thing we're calling The Great Resignation and for this wellbeing crisis that we're in, and all these things that we're saying, what kind of encouragement would you give coaches here at the end of the year to say, Hey, here's some, here's maybe one or two things to really look for, maybe in their own professional or personal development as a coach, as we kind of look, head to this, it's crazy that 2021 is already over, but 2022.

Dean Jones 52:54
Yeah, I just think, there's a couple things I guess I would suggest that coaches are thinking about. One is, I would think about How are you developing your own strengths? So How are you, you know, what's the expression, eating your own dog food? Right? How are you using your own product? Right? How are you walking the talk? And so what is the ground that you've taken this year in understanding, developing your awareness of your own talents and strengths, focusing on your strengths and really investing in them, being able to really fully express yourself as a, as a more talented human being? Right? And how are, do you, you know, if you look at yourself, are you using, what percentage of time are you, are you in a place where you're using your talents and strengths? Right? Like if last year it was 70%, is it 80% this year? Have you, have you moved in the direction of your talents and strengths? And sometimes the answer is "Yes." Wow, I, you know, "and I got to keep going down that road." Sometimes the answer is "No."

Dean Jones 53:52
You know, it sounds funny, but I, just, I've been doing this work on myself, and I look back at this year, and I saw that, for this year, there were a lot of things that I worked on that weren't in the sweet spot of my talents and strengths. And that was a great, that was a great sort of wake-up call for me as I start to design next year.

Dean Jones 54:09
The other thing I think you want to be -- so one is, is how are you modeling being the ongoing development of somebody in the area of your strengths? Then I think you want to set it up so you think about, as you design your goals for next year, you think about How am I going to invest in my strengths? And how am I applying my strengths? So how am I investing in the, in the development of my strengths? What knowledge, skills, experiences am I going to have that are going to help advance my, my, turning my talents into strengths or sharpening my talents so that they're better, that they're stronger strengths? And how am I also then, how am I applying those in really meaningful ways that are fulfilling for me? So I'd be looking at some of that stuff, I think is the direction I would go.

Jim Collison 55:00
Maybe, if you're not getting, if you don't have a mentor or you don't have a mentor-coach, might be, this might be a good year. Or, or even, I've talked to a lot of coaches recently about, about reestablishing this idea of mastermind groups or local meetups or getting some of those -- and however that works for you and your schedule and whatever, getting, there's not one right way to do that. Just a way is to get some help and support, right, some other coaches around you to kind of, to kind of lift you up, to kind of bounce things off of, to kind of work through.

When Managers, Direct Reports Share Talent Themes

Jim Collison 55:32
I, listen, I -- not only do I have the best job in the world, because I get to do what I do here, but I get to work around some of the best individuals on the planet that I can just bounce stuff off of all the time. And you got to have, you have to have that support around you. And it's just, when it's working, when that is working, it is such a great support to have. We won't dig into this now, because we don't have time. But Maureen had asked this a little bit earlier: Talking about the Power of 2, especially in the area of managers sharing themes with their direct reports. And kind of working in that setting, Dean, maybe that's one we can kind of put on the list for next year as, as, as you come back to kind of think through. Any, but any quick thoughts on that?

Dean Jones 56:14
Yeah, I just -- it's a great question, and I love this question. I saw this question; I'm glad you put it up there. Two quick answers on it. One is, I think sometimes when you've got different talents and strengths than the people that you manage, you see those talents and strengths more clearly. And sometimes if it's, if you share the same, you so take, for so many of us, we, our, our talents and strengths are transparent to us; we sort of take them for granted. And so sometimes when you got people that have different talents and strengths than you do, you see them just so, you can, you can actually see them more clearly. One of the guys that works for me has Adaptability and Arranger in his, in his, in his Top 10. They're both talents that, talent themes that I don't have. And man, I'm telling you, I, I see him use them. I treasure it when he does. And I'm just super excited about the -- I'm probably more excited about those talent themes than he is. So I think, so I think it can be a real benefit. And yeah, we can talk more about that in the New Year.

A 10-Year CliftonStrengths Partnership

Jim Collison 57:16
Dean, about 10 years ago -- I know it's hard, that's hard to believe -- you and I sat in my office and talked about this thing Called to Coach, right. We spent some time, spent a couple, well, a bunch of hours talking through it, how it was going to get done, what it was going to look like. And, you know, today as we close out 2021, we've got, we, the, the podcast channel just crossed 3 million downloads for all the podcasts that Gallup does. And a pretty exciting, pretty exciting accomplishment. I just kind of want to say, "Thanks." Thanks for, you know, being my mentor through this and, you know, being my friend and a support. And we just got the opportunity to do a, what we call a Town Hall at Gallup. And we featured all the podcasts. And then, when it was done, everybody wanted a podcast. They were calling me, "How do I start a podcast?" Right? Internally. It was super fun. Again, another one of those things I appreciate at Gallup is that we, we do such, it's so great internally to really celebrate. We celebrate those things internally and do such a good job. Thanks for being my partner on this, Dean.

Dean Jones 58:21
You're so welcome.

Jim Collison 58:22
And thanks for being a great partner to the community on this. They, they, lots of folks kind of live and die for these sessions with you. And so, thank you for being such a great resource. I'm not saying that because you're going anywhere. We have got a lot to do in 2022. And we'll look forward to -- it's a good reminder, I'd better get those on the calendar here pretty quick. I think we have, what, 15 days left in 2021. So I better get you booked for those. I got, I've got some work to do during the break. So Dean, thanks for doing that. Appreciate it.

Dean Jones 58:53
You're welcome. My pleasure.

Jim Collison 58:55
With that, we want to remind everyone to take full advantage of all the resources we do have available now in Gallup Access, and we're adding to them every day. In fact, Talent Mindfulness is coming in the next couple of weeks; it'll be available inside Gallup Access for the very first time. Head out to gallup.com/cliftonstrengths and sign in there and hit the Resources tab. Just search a topic; we've probably got something smart to say on it. So head out there and get that done today. If you have any questions. If you want to become a coach, get some master coaching or become a Gallup-Certified Strengths Coach, you can always send us an email: coaching@gallup.com. You can find us on any social platform just by searching "CliftonStrengths"; and Reilly really wanted me to tell you guys -- she tells me this every day -- "Make sure they subscribe, Jim." Get subscribed to our channels where you're at, so you get a reminder, whenever we post anything new, you never miss anything. I have some folks say, "Ah, I, I missed it." Well, if you subscribe to it, the chances of that are less. So get subscribed, whether it's through the podcast app or on YouTube or whatever. Make 2022 a year of learning for you. I think this is a great opportunity. We're not slowing down on any of these, and so you're gonna have some great opportunities, and you've given us some great ideas today of what's coming for the future. We'll, with this, we'll wish you a Happy New Year as we head into 2022. By the time you're listening to this, it'll be either 2022 or very, very close. If you're listening live, thanks for coming out. With that, we'll say, Goodbye, everybody.

Dean Jones' Top 5 CliftonStrengths are Activator, Focus, Woo, Strategic and Relator.