Maximizing Your Coaching Impact: A 2020 CliftonStrengths® Review

Dean Jones, Global Talent Development Architect at Gallup, was our guest on a recent Called to Coach. In a review of the changes in CliftonStrengths coaching that have taken place in 2020, Dean shared some important insights, including:

• How virtual course and coaching best practices differ from their in-person counterparts
• The role of technical expertise versus an understanding of strengths and people
• The way authenticity and love for human beings can drive your coaching excellence

Somebody was asking me the other day about delivering courses and delivering coaching virtually. And I said, you know, it's funny, because it feels like it's not that different. But then it's completely different.

Dean Jones, 5:33

What people are buying is ... your understanding of strengths and your ability to coach people around that. ... If you have technical expertise, but you have no insight into human beings, that's a bust.

Dean Jones, 42:14

At the end of the day, it's not about the level of polish, but the level of authenticity. And it's particularly where you lean into your commitment to people. That's the piece that is going to make all the difference in the world.

Dean Jones, 53:58

Below is a full transcript of the conversation, including time stamps. Full audio and video are posted above.

Jim Collison 0:00

I am Jim Collison, and live from our virtual studios around the world, this is Gallup's Called to Coach, recorded on December 4, 2020.

Jim Collison 0:19

Called to Coach is a resource for those who want to help others discover and use their strengths. We have Gallup experts and independent strengths coaches share tactics, insights and strategies to help coaches maximize the talent of individuals, teams and organizations around the world. If you're listening live, love to have you join us in our chat room. There's actually, on the live page, a link right above me there that so it will get you to the YouTube instance. Log into the chat room while you're there and you can ask your questions live. If you're listening after the fact and you have questions, you can send us an email: coaching@gallup.com. Don't forget to subscribe wherever you can find us on your favorite podcast app. We are literally everywhere; you can just search "Gallup Webcasts." And on YouTube, hit the Subscribe button. That way you get notified whenever we do anything new. Dean Jones is our host today. Dean is the Global Talent Development Architect and a Senior Learning Expert for Gallup, as well as the chair of Gallup's Diversity Council. Dean, always great to have you back on Called to Coach. Welcome!

Dean Jones 1:09

Thank you. Thanks for being here.

Jim Collison 1:11

It's been quite a year, Dean. I think like this is the last, the final Called to Coach for you for the end of the year.

Dean Jones 1:20

Yeah, that's right.

Jim Collison 1:20

And just as we were kind of, as I've been kind of thinking, like, we've been, everybody's been kind of begging to get to December. Like "If we could just get to the end of the year!" And here we are. I think as we look back at the work we've done this year and the work, a lot of the work you've done, internally for Gallup and externally for our coaches, you've appeared in a lot of places. I mean, you've had a very, very busy year. You've done a lot of things virtually to get, kind of get us all through this. Can you, just can you kind of give us a breath of all the things that you've, that you've worked on this year, both with us and for the coaches?

Dean Jones 1:57

Yeah, you know, it's interesting, I think. It's exactly right; it's exactly right. I mean, I think this was a year where we all went virtual. This is a year where we all, all of a sudden, all of us were working, working virtually and doing a million online things. And I am sure it's for everybody that's, that's a coach who's on, that it is probably as true for you as it is for us that immediately your audience size doubled or tripled or quadrupled. Because all of a sudden, there were a million people listening, right? And to your point. I mean, it's, it is crazy, it is crazy this year. Like there, I started doing our our client briefings. So the briefings that we offer on particular topics, I did a lot of those this year. And they told me at one point that like over a 2 1/2-month period, I had led briefings to 10,000 people, right. And so yeah, it was just nuts.

Dean Jones 2:48

I mean, we would get on, you know, like, normally, you know, it's a good day if there were 50 people on. And we'd get on these and there'd be literally 1,000 people on a briefing, you know, so it was just nuts. And, you know, and I've also done a lot -- to your point, I mean, I've really, we started doing internal town halls every week. So having all of our associates globally on these town halls that we, that we produced. I did a lot of teaching this year. There was a, well in fact, you were laughing about December, but week before last, I think I was leading a course internally that met every single day virtually; I led a big session for our Diversity Council; I led on a big town hall that week, right? It was just like, it feels like every single day, there's like, there's something going on, right? And so it's been a big year.

Jim Collison 3:39

I told you, we were talking about this session yesterday, I think, or the day before. And I said, in the beginning of the pandemic, and we started doing these things, and I saw you doing it, and I'm like, "Oh, man, I'd really like to do that!" Then as we made it through the summer, I was like, "Man, I'm glad that was Dean! It's a lot of work." We, we, one of my favorite things that you and I have done together is we did this 5 tips in 10 minutes for some of our internal folks, which was just this really fun exercise in getting some of our best people together, you interviewing them and really kind of pulling out some lessons learned in that.

Jim Collison 4:13

And it, it was, for many of them, it was brand new for them to come virtual, right. They hadn't, they hadn't done this before virtual. We -- we're very used to it. We do it all the time. So I think we learned some things about virtual that even maybe we didn't know in August -- I mean in April or April or May time frame, right. We have learned some things. Dean, I'd like to kind of walk through that a little bit. And I got a little story to tell to kind of get us started. But let's, let's kind of work through what did we, what did we learn? Because I think we learned a lot.

Dean Jones 4:43

Yeah, I think, you know, for us as, again, as we were talking about this, we were talking about, and we were talking about what to talk about today. Jim, when you said, "Hey, let's look back at what we learned about delivering virtually," and, and we, you know, we had done those sessions back earlier this year, and that were about -- I think it was a two-parter we did on delivering virtually and kind of some tips and techniques. And, and I went back and looked at the notes from that session. And, you know, I think it's so funny, it was kind of like looking at your junior high pictures, right? You're like, yeah, like, there I was, I was a little geeky, I was very naive, right? You know, so go back and look at those notes and I was just like, Oh, my gosh, we had no idea what we were getting ourselves in for, right. Like we knew something then; we know a lot more now.

Dean Jones 5:30

And I told somebody the other day that -- somebody was asking me the other day about delivering courses and delivering coaching virtually. And I said, you know, it's funny, because it feels like it's not that different. But then it's completely different. You know, there's some ways where it's like any other kind of leading and, you know, the kind of principles that work in that kind of leading really work. And then there's elements of it that are very, very different than anything else that you do. So, so yeah, so I think there's some stuff to talk about.

Dean Jones 6:02

One, one, I was gonna tell the story about, I had a coach who's a friend of mine, give a shout-out to my to my strengths twin, Donna Gardner, who was coming through Bentonville and called me and said, Hey, let's have lunch. And we were talking, and one of the things that kind of came up in lunch was that she had been asked to do a strengths session with a, I think it was with like a Board of Directors for an organization, it was -- and she typically does this kind of work all the time. So she, as a strengths coach, she's, she, I met her at our first Gallup at Work Summit. And we've stayed friends ever since. we kind of connected because we've got 4 of the same Top 5.

Dean Jones 6:38

And so, but she was concerned because she hadn't done a lot of the virtual stuff. And she hadn't done a lot of the virtual stuff and she was concerned about, Hey, I want to make sure I can have the right impact. And we talked about it a little bit. And then she went and delivered and just nailed it. And I think for a, for, she sent me a note afterwards and just nailed it. And she's excited about now doing some more of that. And I think for a lot of us, that's the process it's been this year, is kind of like, Hey, is this gonna translate? Or am I going to really be able, you know, for me, am I really going to be able to connect with people and have the impact that I want to have? And then you kind of try it and you get your wheels up under you and it's like, No, no, no, I can, I can do this. I think this is really good.

Jim Collison 7:20

So Dean, when we think about content, let's just roll through some of these. You know, you said, "It's exactly the same, but it's completely different." When you're bringing content, what do we, what do we learn about that?

Dean Jones 7:32

Yeah, I think, so, so starting with the content piece, I think it -- one is is that anybody who has been involved in, in online learning or elearning, or building elearning kind of modules will tell, will tell you about using this kind of flipped classroom approach. Where you use the time that you're together for the interaction piece; you don't try to do, you don't try to deliver presentations and like that. One of the things I just did, we have a entry-level course for our new consultants in one of our in one of our business divisions, right. And I'm responsible for delivering that. And one of, one of the things we did was to really employ this flipped classroom approach. And the more -- I will tell you, the more we, we use it, the better that it is, is having people watch videos, read articles, journal, do different kinds of group work outside of the time that we've got online, and prep slides that they're going to deliver so that we can really use the time together to make sure we've got good discussion, good interaction, that we're really working together around that.

Dean Jones 8:37

I will tell you, it, the whole, the whole way of approaching this is, I find, is really different. It's, it really, one, is, is, is that particularly delivering online, is smaller groups are just better for learning and sharing. So in some ways, we've taken down the cohort size. So typically, I, you know, when I'm leading in person, I love to have a cohort that's between 20 and 30 people; I always think that's a great cohort for learning and sharing. Online, I love to have much smaller groups. So if I can have a group of 10 to 12, versus a group of 20 to 30, it feels more intimate, it feels like people get more airtime. Part of it that we've learned is you just, that what really works is just to tighten everything up in terms of the timeline.

Dean Jones 9:27

So when we're translating work we would typically do in person to online, typically, using that flipped classroom approach, we'll pull out everything that feels like it's knowledge sharing or information dissemination. So try to figure out a way to deliver that differently. And then the rule of thumb that I -- this is not a hard rule of thumb, but this is kind of the rule of thumb I've been using -- is typically 2 to 3 hours in a classroom is equivalent to about 1 hour on, of online delivery. So trying to condense everything so that you've got, you want to make sure you've got enough real estate to be able to get the job done. But it does feel like it needs to be condensed, even just having somebody talk. Typically, you know, when we do, we do a lot of retreats and Summit sessions and things like that, even having somebody present where we would normally say, Hey, we want you to for 30 minutes or 45 minutes, gosh, 15 to 20 minutes in this kind of Zoom online format feels like it's, it's got the same kind of impact.

Jim Collison 10:31

Can you drill in a little bit on the interaction then? So as we think about there's, so you've got a group size; we're working with them. What kind of interaction should we be looking for? In person, this is so natural and so easy. And I think it's different virtually. Can you talk a little bit about that?

Dean Jones 10:46

Yeah, I just think it's different -- even with cameras on, I think, one is, the thing that's always interesting for me is in a room with people, there are just more visual cues. So you can see visually more visual cues. And one of the things I, you know, I always say this, and I always encourage people to say this, is I always tell people, "Hey, turn your camera on." Right? "I want to see your, I want to see your face," right. And there are groups, I will tell you, that that's natural and you see. I think at the beginning, honestly, the beginning of the pandemic, I'd go on to groups, and they, you know, a lot of people would have their cameras off. And more and more as we've gone through this, I think it's more natural for people just to have their cameras on. I think people all of a sudden thought they were getting ready for a photo shoot. You know what I mean? I'd have people at the beginning that were like, "Hey, I, you know, I don't have makeup on or, you know, I'm still wearing my sweats." I'm like, "I'm good with it if you're good with it." Right.

Dean Jones 11:41

And so, you know, so I do know that there's that that self-consciousness. I think some of that wore off during the pandemic. And I thought that was good and healthy. So I -- there's still some visual cues. And I think there's, you know, when I lead, I'm still looking for some of those visual cues like, you know, if somebody unmutes, I can tell they want to talk or you can see people, particularly again, as you have a smaller group, it's easier to have everybody on camera. I think somebody told me that Zoom, initially Zoom, you could have like 24 people on one screen at a time where you could see everybody, right. And it was one of the reasons initially that we started managing our cohort sizes for the courses we lead to around that number. My understanding is that Zoom increased it so that there's -- you can see actually more, more, more folks. Again, it's just nicer if you've got a more intimate cohort.

Dean Jones 12:32

We did a survey of our own folks, of our own associates. And one of the things that, and our associates said was the No. 1 thing they liked in terms of learning was small-group Zoom learning, small-group online learning was like the No. 1 way. So people having the ability to ask questions and interact and doing that. So, on your question, you know, oh, sorry.

Jim Collison 12:55

Well, no, let me, let me let's get specific on some of those. Because I think we thought, I think a lot of people thought breakout rooms were going to be everything. And there's so, and they are, but there's so much more to it, Dean. So what other kind of components should we be looking at in there?

Dean Jones 13:10

I'm gonna give you my -- this is my opinion, for what it's worth. This is not Gallup's opinion; this is Dean Jones' opinion, but I'm not -- I like breakout rooms; I'm not a huge fan of them, honestly. I'd rather have a small cohort that I can interact with and where everybody's interacting. One of the things that we've found is, if you've got, if you're teaching a class, and you know you've got momentum around it, that breakout rooms are useful. And it's great to have that paired sharing, or the small-group sharing, like sharing with two other folks. Right. I find that breakout rooms aren't great with larger groups, like you put 5, 6, 7 -- a larger group -- in a breakout room, it's not as great. We also have found that, we've also found that when we do really big sessions that might have several hundred people in them, if we try to do a breakout room, we just lose people, right? Everybody takes it as the -- they hear "break," not "breakout." So everybody leaves. And so I typically, I'm not a big fan of that.

Dean Jones 14:07

I tell you what I am a big fan of: I, one is, is that I think when you're trying to facilitate interaction around this, that one is that is to call on people. So I, and again, I try to use visual cues, but I just call on people. And I have just found that you just have to draw people in. People don't know, like, the worst is and, and I've been on some painful Zoom sessions where somebody -- the leader asks a question and nobody knows, should I go or should I not go, and like that? And it feels like it's just like pulling teeth. It's just a trip to the dentist. So, you know, I think it's important that as a facilitator, you're generating a lot and you're saying, "OK, hey, Jim, I'd like you to go first." Right? "Would you, would you mind doing that?" And that you're, and you're cueing people and managing it so that everybody knows when to go. And people have the option to say, "Hey, I want to pass this time," or "Hey, I'd like to go last. Is that OK?" It's, that's great. But you've got somebody navigating that facilitation.

Dean Jones 15:05

The other thing I think is great is man, I'll tell you, group chat. It's funny at the beginning. I think it was on that show that we talked and somebody said, "I hate group chat when I'm leading, and I want to be able to turn it off so people just pay attention." And I think one of the cool things that happens -- you see it on these Called to Coach sessions, right, is there's the conversation that's happening in the room. But there's also the conversation that's happening in chat. And part of what I love is, I think that's part of the kind of multidimensional aspect of online learning is, is it's kind of like having a discussion in the room, at the same time that you're having a discussion, it feels like, it feels really dynamic. And like, the more I can get people to participate around that, I think the better they are. And certainly I like to use that. A lot of, I think, leading online is creating participation and creating a, an environment of psychological safety. So feel, people feel comfortable asking question, unmuting, asking questions or asking hard questions in chat, or, you know, that they feel comfortable sharing. So a lot of, a lot of what I think works in a, in an in-person classroom to create psychological safety is there. But I think that polls, group chat, some of those kind of things, also give people a low-risk way to be able to participate.

Jim Collison 16:35

I know this seems dumb, but we use polls a lot in our meetings. We just, we do, and, and what I have found is they're very, very beneficial in starting things. And so the poll kind of gets people engaged in doing something and thinking about something. So a poll starts, we give it a few seconds to get done, the poll ends up -- and we've done this with I think as many as 600 on a call on a town hall, right? We get that poll information back, we talk a little bit about it, and then the chat room lights up. And so I have found that kind of that, that kind of a one-two punch of, "Hey, I want to introduce this topic. But I want to start with a poll. What do you think? Take it to chat." And it has just, Dean, that has been, for me, that keeps me engaged. That keeps me looking at it. It keeps me kind of thinking in on it.

Jim Collison 17:22

I too, you mentioned breakout rooms. When I hear "breakout rooms," I just know they're going to be a little bit of a nightmare. And so I kind of I kind of go, Ooh, I don't, there's some, there's some conversation in our chat right now about Yeah, making sure you have kind of dedicated facilitators in each of those breakout rooms, so it's just not a bunch of people showing up and then going, "Well, what do we do?" Right? That's, that's a big problem. Right?

Dean Jones 17:46

Yeah, I mean, to your point about polls, to your point about polls, I wanted to comment on that, because I think you're right on. We did a manager meeting at the beginning of summer, so right after all the George Floyd stuff happened, right. And we obviously we -- that was the point when we created our Diversity Council internally. And we were focused on a lot of things. It was right before, I think, or right after we had launched the Center for Black Voices. Anyway, we did this -- and by the way, if you don't know about that, go check out the Gallup Center for Black Voices. That's a, that's a plug for the incredible work that team is doing. But we had a manager meeting, and we wanted to talk about diversity, equity and inclusiveness. Right. And we were, the team of us that were planning this manager meeting, part of what we, one of the questions we had was, Hey, where are our managers relative to this? Like, how equipped do they feel? Have they already had conversations with their teams? Have their teams been asking about it? We didn't know. And we were trying to plan the conversation or the presentation, that part of the the manager meeting to be able to address that.

Dean Jones 18:50

And one of the cool things we decided to do was just do a poll. And man, I'm telling you, it was so cool, that we walked into that presentation, not guessing where are people at, but we did a series of 4 or 5 questions where we said, Hey, have associates reached out to you about this? Have you already proactively talked to your team about this? How equipped do you feel? What do you feel like you need? We did a series of 4 or 5 questions, and then could do the whole session around the specific responses that they had. And man, I'm telling you, it's so powerful to feel like, Hey, we've zeroed in on exactly what you need and using the poll to be able to do that. So I think that's really powerful.

Jim Collison 19:31

And I think, this is where it's, it's easier and more powerful than even in person to get people's opinion. If you tried to do if you are in person and tried to do that poll function, it just -- we actually tried to do this at our church, where we had people, you know, we'd ask a question and have people get on their phones and do it. It just doesn't translate. But it translates so well into this virtual environment and should be used a lot in it. Now don't overdo it. Right. But, but, but that oppor, you know, that opportunity to really get somebody's opinion, engage them in. I think the chat room is the other piece. If you were in a room and you were teaching, Dean, and there was a conversation going on in the back of the room, you know, we've got Justin and Beverly talking to each other in the back of the room, that would be distracting. But in this environment, it works. We can have a conversation in the chat room. While I'm talking, you're reading; while you're talking, I'm reading. We can get that instant feedback and add it in and know where the audience is going and listen to that conversation without it really affecting anybody else. I think that's been the power of virtual. This is where virtual is way better than in person, for sure.

Dean Jones 20:36

Yeah, it definitely feels that way. I also think just even leading, and I want to talk about this a little bit, just even leading in virtual feels a little different. I think one, one is, you know, I've led a number of sessions, and particularly a number of retreats and that kind of stuff, since we've been doing this. One is I think that it just, you have to generate more. One of the things it's interesting, and you'll appreciate this, because we're both friends with Austin Suellentrop, right. So one of the things was we started doing virtual courses, not even this year, but a few years ago. And we put Austin, Austin started leading some of these virtual courses. One of the things we could see was that Austin was just a natural for leading these kind of courses. And part of it is, is you have to generate a lot more, so it takes a lot more front-of-the-room generating than it does, I think, in a typical instructor-led environment, right? You have to have more intention, you have to have more focus, you're facilitating a lot more, because you're facilitating people sharing and you're also making sure that you're, you're managing what's happening in the group chat.

Dean Jones 21:38

I know for a lot of folks, and I think somebody said it in the chat here, is having cofacilitators really works around that. Having, you know, in some cases, having somebody watch the chat while you're leading, I think that really works, and, and doing that kind of tag team. It -- but one of the things that I find really works is you just need to talk more or narrate more when you, when you are leading in an online format. And I really call it, you know, it sounds funny, but it really is more like narrating than just talking. It's not like you present more, but you are talking more to people to talk through, "Hey, what's happening," and "Here's what I'd like you to do." And hey, you know, a lot of great facilitators I see can narrate the chat. And it's almost like being a podcast host, right, you know?

Dean Jones 22:25

One of the things I've coached, I've been coaching a group of our consultants to lead briefings. And one of the things I said to them was, Hey, go watch morning shows. Watch how people open the conversation in a morning show; watch how people wrap a session or a segment in a morning show. Those morning talk shows are, I think, a great, easy, accessible model for all of us on how to facilitate this kind of stuff, you know.

Jim Collison 22:49

I think, Dean, watching you, because you and I partnered a lot more this year than I think we ever have. And we've partnered a lot, but this year, we've spent a lot of time together. I've kind of watched you really get good at this hosting role, this idea of opening the program, making sure people feel comfortable, making sure some rules are kind of laid out. Here's what we're going to actually kind of do, kind of my role in Called to Coach. How helpful or how have you seen yourself grow in that area? And how important is it to kind of practice that?

Dean Jones 23:19

Honest to God, I, you know, if we go back to the first Called to Coach that I did, I was nervous as hell. And, man, I'm telling you, and, you know, one of the things I, it sounds funny, but I feel like I've learned -- not to pander here, but -- I feel like I've learned everything about this from you. I was a great, I would say, I came into this feeling really comfortable as, as an instructor-led course leader, right. And, and really had a lot of experience. I had literally decades of experience doing it. I hadn't, I hadn't led as much online. And I wasn't, I don't think, as facile as, as I know, as I am now. Part, part of it is just, I think just reps. And by the way, I've told a lot of people, I think it's just, you know, this is a skill. This is a skill. And, you know, like, like, like all skills, your talent, if you're tapped into your talent, and you've got, and you, and you understand your own talent and can apply it, it makes it really helpful. So, but I do think this is a skill where practice makes a difference.

Jim Collison 24:18

Yeah, reps just get in. People ask me all the time, "How'd you get good at this?" I said, "I've done it 1,000 times," literally. Like I went back and counted; it's probably more, you know, it's just doing it over and over again. How does that translate, you know, not all coaches are podcasters. And they're -- my recommendation is you just, you just do some, you got to do more, but sometimes you can practice, write some things out. We have, you know, you and I have both worked off scripts in the past of making sure, yeah, even though that might feel weird. Like, Oh, I'd never go into a coaching conversation or I'd never go into a group coaching call with a script. But man, Dean that has been so beneficial to me to have a structure to work off of, and then have it practiced.

Dean Jones 25:00

I, so when I was training course leaders to lead an instructor-led courses, one of the things -- I used to do this exercise, I've done this exercise now for years. And in fact, I just had, I just had a consultant that's a leader of ours in Europe, come to me and say, she said, When, when you had first had me do this exercise, I thought it was a little weird. But I, it's completely changed the way now that I'm able to open up meetings. So I, one of the things I have people do is write out their introduction, the first few minutes of introducing themselves in a course. Right. And the reason I did that is, one, is when you're introducing yourself at the beginning of a course, the, the two things I've always coached course leaders around is that you've got to establish two things: 1) You've got to establish your own credibility. So are you somebody that's got something to teach people? And 2) you have to establish your accessibility. Right? Are you somebody that's accessible, down to earth? Somebody that I feel like I can ask questions of and connect with, right?

Dean Jones 26:01

So, and it's this funny kind of paradoxical relationship between credibility and accessibility. So I would have people sit and literally write out, How are you going to introduce yourselves? And then I'd have them set it, set it aside, not, not read it or not try to memorize it, but that they had gone through the thinking process of thinking, What are the things I want to make sure I say; what are the things I want to focus on? Right?

Dean Jones 26:25

I always tell people, you know that. I'm from the Louis Armstrong School of Preparation, Louie Armstrong, the famous trumpet player, jazz trumpet player. He, he, his famous quote that I just love is, He would say, he said, "First I learn all the notes, and then I just blow." And I think that's really the, the access to preparation is, first you learn all the notes. And then when you get in front of the group, you just blow, right. But to your point, I, you know, you know when we do Called to Coach, I always, it's important to me that there's substance. It's important to me that I'm not just there winging it off the top of my head, but I've thought through what's going to be the most meaningful stuff. So I always have a Word document in front of me that's an outline of some of the things I want to make sure I talk about or things things I want to say, so that I've got notes.

Dean Jones 27:18

Sometimes I, you know, for those, for those who've gone to my Summit presentations in the past, sometimes I really write, like for this year, for the Summit, I really wrote it all out. And then I posted it on LinkedIn. So I, you know, I really try to make sure that I have thought through What's the, what are the points I want to make? And, and, and I'm really prepared to be able to go and do that, you know.

Jim Collison 27:39

Justin makes a nice comment; he says, "You can stick Post-It notes all around your screen," right?

Dean Jones 27:43

Oh, yeah.

Jim Collison 27:43

That's helpful. I have, we, you know, we have just an online doc that you and I share that we go through, and, and even for this program today, we haven't followed it exactly. We've moved around a little bit, right. We, it was with good intention, but the conversation just didn't go that way. And so we've been working kind of bringing it into a natural state so that it doesn't, "Oh, hey, you forgot that! Let's go back and," you know, that kind of deal, right, that kind of makes people feel uncomfortable? Dean, I think the other thing that's really, really important in this too, is that we review, that we review those plays that we did, we review those sessions. And that the hardest part about learning is going back and watching yourself. I mean, how hard is that?

Dean Jones 28:27

Oh, painful, so painful. Oh, my gosh, the most painful thing. It's funny because I was, so I'm right now in the middle of training this group of 7 of our consultants, and they're, they're at a relatively senior level, right? They're 7 of our consultants I've been training them to lead our briefings, right. And so they're leading a lot of our client, client-oriented briefings. So one of the things that we've been doing, so they they've been leading briefings, and then, then part of what I have them do is go back, watch the recording of the briefing, listen to them delivering the briefing, make notes and then we do a debrief. And without exception, every one of them has come back and just said, Gosh, I could barely do it.

Dean Jones 29:05

And, you know, it reminds me of those actors and actresses that have said, "I'd never watch my own movies." I always thought that was really weird. Like, why would you not go back and watch your work? But it's, when you do it, even in the beginning, the sound of your own voice is alien. And we all know that the way that -- maybe we don't all know, but the way you sound to yourself is actually not the way you sound to other people. So just getting used to the sound of your voice -- that alone, I think, takes some doing. So it's -- but there is nothing more powerful. If you've ever done one of those presentation skills classes where they videotape you, and then they watch it with you and give you notes, it's incredibly powerful. It's more powerful -- I can sit and tell you all the things you did right and wrong and all the things that I would suggest you do differently. But you watching yourself is 100 times more powerful than anything a coach would give you around that.

Jim Collison 30:00

David says in the chat room, It took him 30 years of listening to himself on recordings to accept that this is my voice, you know. That, that, sometimes it's so painful to go back. You know, there's people scheduling root canals and COVID tests, like, I'd rather go do that than listen to myself. Now, trust me, I've done both, and you -- this, it's a lot easier to listen to yourself. But there's a lot to learn in that. There's a lot to learn in the repetition. My wife Sarah, who's upstairs right now, she says to me all the time, "I know exactly what you're doing by hearing what you're saying." And she has heard me say these things so many times, whether I'm opening up a Called to Coach or a Theme Thursday or doing my Home Gadget Geeks podcast or any of those kinds of things. And then she knows the phrases I use.

Jim Collison 30:45

And I think these repetitive phrases, especially as we think about one-on-one coaching, I think this is even an area where when we're doing one-on-one coaching virtually, there can be things we say consistently, that have a rhythm or a cadence to them that can be done in a way that's consistent, right? Can you talk, Dean, a little bit about some of those other things, we, we, we've kind of skewed towards large group settings. But do you have any other thoughts on the kind of the one-on-one calls too?

Dean Jones 31:11

Yeah, I do. I think, yeah, why don't we just talk about group dynamics, I guess, across the continuum here, right? So one is, so I've done a bunch of, of one-on-one coaching calls that, on Zoom this year. And you know, I know that there's some, some organizations don't use Zoom or don't like to use Zoom. We use Zoom internally; I also have, have a personal Zoom account. So I'm kind of a Zoom guy, right. But I love using, I love, I love being able to coach online. One is, it's completely changes the dynamic of coaching. So I can really, I can see people, I hear them. There's something about that it's just really powerful.

Dean Jones 31:51

I was just coaching a guy yesterday, there's a guy yesterday who he's with a client I've been working with. And we did a one-on-one kind of feedback around his strengths. And I had, now maybe I'll screw it up, it's page 21, I think, of the strengths report, the one that's got the blocks with the theme dyn, the Domains. And, man, I'm telling you, there's nothing more powerful than having that page in front of somebody when you're coaching. And I've done that now a number of times where it's like, Hey, let's just look at this. And even more than, you know, when, if you've read the report, you've got the representational language in your head. Just visually being able to see that diagram while you're talking with somebody and while they're talking with you, I think is just incredibly powerful. And it, I think it's really good.

Dean Jones 32:42

The other, the other piece, I think, and I think there are coaches who are incredibly facile with this, where they can hear, When is it time to ask a question?; When is it time to probe? One of the things that I think it really helps is, is just seeing somebody, I think gives you some visual cues, in addition to those auditory cues, to let you know, Hey, when do I want to drill into something? When do I know I've hit a nerve here, and this is something we should unpack and explore? So I think that's incredibly powerful. I think -- go ahead --

Jim Collison 33:16

No, no, no. Keep going.

Dean Jones 33:18

I think, on the other end of the spectrum with big groups, we've done a lot of work with really big groups this year, I mean, hundreds, even thousands of people. And, gosh, you know, with big groups, I think it's so important that everybody's been prepared. People tease me a little bit at Gallup because I would just, I never just, no matter how comfortable somebody says they are, I always want to make sure we prep somebody before we're going to put them in front of a big group, not necessarily because they have stage fright. But because I know that the -- we've got to keep the pace moving. And the messaging needs to be really tight. And we need to make sure that, that they are set up to really be able to deliver around that.

Dean Jones 33:59

And so I always make, make sure that before somebody is going to deliver to a big group, one is I've prepped them before I put them there. The other thing is, is I, as, as part of preparing them, invariably in this format, I encourage people not to use slides as much as possible. You know, I find that particularly with big groups, it's useful to have slides; it's nice to have slides. But I will tell you, I think the thing that people really connect to is sharing and stories that -- much more than the content on the slide. The slide's useful, and I think it's useful as a kind of a placeholder. And there's times when you want to present data where you really do need to have that in front of you. But even more so that it's really different, even more so than being in an instructor-led course, where in an instructor-led course, you're kind of watching the person and then you may look up at the screen. I think you really want to keep people focused on people, because I feel like that that impact and that connection really makes a difference.

Jim Collison 34:58

Dean, to, to one of your points, just really quick before we move on with that. You know, I think it's really, really powerful in this setting, you know, the two of us are, you know, you and I are talking about this, to say, "Hey, Jim, you know, pull up page 21. And let's, like, let's look at this together," right? Have me do it. If you're coaching me, have me pull this up and share this. So now it's available to me. And I can kind of roll through this. This is, this is my page 21. And I could share that with, with you, it's a conversation. But we could also go deeper into the report. So we can kind of, you know, we can scroll up and down and look at it together. And I think that of, yes, you could, as a coach, you could have it ready. But then you're just kind of spoon-feeding. And this opportunity to have them Hey, go, let's log in. Pull it -- I mean, I pulled this up in a minute when I was here doing with it.

Jim Collison 35:46

So this idea of sharing, you know, we do this all the time when we're doing work here at Gallup, like, "Hey, let me just share my screen. Let me just show it to you." Because I, you know, but have them share their screen so they're sharing it from their experience, not necessarily you giving it to them.

Dean Jones 36:03

Yeah, completely. And I was gonna say, you know, I've, over the summer, I've led a number of strengths sessions. I was just thinking about one that I led a couple weeks ago for a small company where we were doing an all-associate meeting, right. And one of the things I love about that is, you know, when you're doing a strengths education session with a group, and you say, you say to everybody, "Hey, take out your report. And now we're going to talk you through the different parts of your report," which I think is always important, because the report's long, and there's a lot of stuff there. And people may not know what's there, right? So to be able to do that, being able to share your screen and walk them through on the screen so that you, I don't know, I don't know about you, but I've had those sessions where I'm doing that in person, and everybody's in person, and I'm right there. But as I'm walking around the room and looking to make sure everybody's got their strengths report, not everybody's even on the same page, you know. So just being able to do that.

Dean Jones 36:57

The other thing that's been really powerful is -- you know this, I know this -- there are a ton of free resources in Gallup Access, that come with doing, just doing strengths. And being able to get a session go, in the session, to be able to say, "Hey, let me show you Gallup Access. Now, let me show you some of the resources that are there." That is incredibly powerful. So people feel like they've got a handle on that. So yeah, I find that very, very useful.

Dean Jones 37:25

The only other thing -- and it's kind of a funny thing that I'll say is -- again, I, kind of my preference is, is kind of those small, smaller groups, smaller cohorts where I can really connect with people and do education in that way. One of the things that I really do notice is, depending on who's in the room, the dynamics change. And, now I know, for a lot of companies, you know, they'll, that you'll do a session, session, and if everybody's boss is in the room, it changes the dynamic. So it's, it, the dynamic changes. One of the things I've really noticed is, particularly as we do these sessions, that, that there's no -- you know, and Maika, I think, is fond of saying this, everybody's in the front row for the session. There's no back row for the session. There's -- everybody's in the front row. Well, sometimes that's great, because everybody's in the front row. Sometimes it, the dynamics are a little weird, because everybody's in the front row. So everybody's watching, Who's there? And how are they reacting and like that, so it's managing a little bit of that. So, so that, and being sensitive to those dynamics, I think, is also really important.

Jim Collison 38:32

Anything else you'd add on the dynamics side? I've got, I've kind of got one more question for you.

Dean Jones 38:37

OK, let me just see. You know, I, I do think that I want to go back to the piece about facilitating these kind of things. So as you go back and facilitate these things, and you're kind of narrating, one of the things that I feel pretty strongly about, is that as you're narrating it and facilitating it, that you're using people's names, you're calling on people, but you're also narrating what's happening in chat and incorporating that. One of the pieces that I feel sort of weirdly strong about is, is we, in the sessions that I lead, I know there's an option where people can ask anonymous questions, right. So, and particularly, in the, I think it's in the, the webinar version of Zoom, you can turn that on and off. I always think it's super important that you want everybody to participate. So I don't ever let people ask anonymous questions. I always make sure that I'm asking people to ask questions, and then chatting with people about it, and like that. I think that's a really important piece. So

Jim Collison 39:42

When we think about the delivery piece, and I approach this from 100% Influencing. If you saw my page 21, it's, it's all Influencing, right? That's, that's what I do, and I love doing it. How important is that piece that we remember, when we're doing these kinds of things, that whether you or me or someone else who may not have it, that delivery and that confidence and that, that influence in the role they play as, as an instructor or as a leader in this?

Dean Jones 40:11

So ask me the question again?

Jim Collison 40:13

Yeah, how important is this idea of, OK, we're coming to these sessions, right? How important is it that we -- and I'm probably answering my own question as I'm asking it, but -- this, this idea of the, of the delivery, the importance of the delivery, and the way we do it, and the confidence that we have to deliver that. How important is that in kind of really nailing that so that you're, you're selling it, you're -- just like you do it in person. You couldn't come in and be disheveled; you would, you kind of need to have it together, right?

Dean Jones 40:43

You kind of have to -- the one thing, though, I will give you that I like to give people a little bit of grace around, right, is that I think sometimes, right now in this environment, people that are experienced facilitators come in, and they may say, "Hey, I'm not, I'm not an expert of that technology." Or "I'm not an, I'm not a technological expert, or technical expert." And they think that what they've got to come in and do is they've got to be an expert at delivering online or they got to be an expert at the technology. And one of the things I try to help people to understand is, no, you really don't need to be. You need to know how to use the technology and not screw it up, right? You also -- it doesn't take -- sometimes I think people need a lot of this whiz-bang stuff. So I think, God, I sound like I'm an old man don't I? Whiz-bang, malarkey --

Jim Collison 41:37

As long as you don't show us that 1940s radio voice all of a suddent -- "Here we go now! Get it right on Zoom!

Dean Jones 41:44

But I see a lot of people get worried or hung up around certain features of Zoom and am I incorporating these or not? And that they feel like they've got to do that stuff. The other thing I see people doing a lot is a lot of the concern about, you know, like, Where am I putting my Top 5 and my name? Or do I need to have a set behind me? Or I, you know, I will tell you my preference. And I hope this, I mean this not to diminish that but to help people to focus. I think the, the core piece is what people are buying is your expertise. What people are buying is your insight into human beings, your understanding of strengths and your ability to coach people around that. They're not buying the set; they're not buying the, your technological expertise. And in fact, if you have technical, technical expertise, but you have no insight into human beings, that's a bust.

Dean Jones 42:34

And so the thing that you got to remember that you're selling really is, is your core understanding of human development, of strengths, your insight into people. That's the piece that people want. And that's the piece that people need. So I think, I think people sometimes get concerned about stuff that is peripheral, rather than really the core value that, that clients are buying from you.

Jim Collison 42:59

Yeah. No, right on. We've got some questions from the chat room. Justin says, and I'll summarize this, Anything that you learned that was a total bust, from a total bust in the last -- as we think about, you know, since March, where it went horribly wrong?

Dean Jones 43:16

Yeah, I've had, I've had all kinds of crazy stuff that happened. I had, I was, I was leading one, one briefing session where my internet cut out at the, in the last 5 minutes, so I couldn't see anything. But I was still connected from an, from an auditory, my, my sound is still connected. So I was basically flying blind the last 5 minutes, and I went back and listen to the recording, and you couldn't tell that I was. But I was like, oh, OK, this is, we're doing this now. I've had, I've had sessions where we had a big, we had a big manager retreat,where one of our executives who was wrapping the day all of a sudden lost her internet connection, you know. And it was like, OK, you know, like, what do we do?

Dean Jones 44:00

You know, that, that stuff happens, it's just going to happen. It's interesting, I've had a couple of sessions, where that -- and you were, I think you were at least one of them. I've had a couple of sessions where we had, we had speakers that were really intense, and, in fact, were really passionate, really intense, and kind of went off script, you know. We had one town hall around diversity where we had some outside speakers, and, man, it got really intense. And, you know, it's the kind of thing where I, you know, it wasn't what I planned. But man, I'm telling you, we got more positive feedback from people around that. Similarly, we've had a couple of big town halls, where we had people that were sharing about what was important to them or their, their, their sense of the future, that were really intense for people. And, and I will tell you, it's, it's funny, it's, it doesn't feel, it doesn't feel neat and polished, but that's the stuff that people really connect to. So in a weird way, it's like that, that kind of stuff is this stuff that makes it exciting and fun and different and engaging for people. So you never want to, you never want to invite the technological breakdowns. But some of this stuff that's unscripted and authentic is the stuff that's most powerful, I think, for people.

Jim Collison 45:18

On that one session that got intense, I was glad that was you, and not me, by the way.

Dean Jones 45:24

This is where the fact that I have Harmony No. 34, you know, I'm like, "Oh, we're gonna talk about this? OK, bring it!"

Jim Collison 45:32

I was watching, I was watching Dean. And by the way, I watch and learn the same way. You can watch other people, right? I'm always watching other people, how they're doing things, I'm stealing the best of what I see from them. And I was watching you in that, and I'm like, Oh, my gosh, how are we getting, you know, how is this gonna work? And you just didn't, it didn't faze you. In fact, you kind of leaned into it and embraced it. And, and I think that's my advice is like when things go wrong, don't freak out. Don't apologize for, for the next 10 minutes. Just pick it up, keep going. Things are gonna happen. Just keep it rolling. You don't want to, you know, the longer you dwell on that, the more people get embarrassed today themselves, and then they'll stop listening. So just kind of keep rolling with it. It's, it happens, those kinds of things happen. Mark asks, Dean, what's on your horizon on what you want to try in 2021 to keep things fresh? So as we're thinking about next year, any thoughts on keeping it fresh in 2021?

Dean Jones 46:29

Yeah, I would tell you we, I am embarking on a year where we're trying to figure out, How do we take all of our learning to the next level? Jim mentioned, this thing we, we did this Fourth Quarter that we did this, we did a basically a podcast and -- that was an internal podcast. We called it 5 tips, 10 minutes. And what we did was, we, we just, it's just, like, Jim Collison is my inspiration here. We, we, we it was, it was really sparked by a business need. Our business development folks, our consultants that work in that area, are -- this is literally the busiest time of year for them. And so doing a lot of formal learning during this time just doesn't work.

Dean Jones 47:10

So we put together this thing where there are 10-minute segments, we asked one of our senior experts, or one of the senior people in that division, to share 5 tips they had on a particular, particular subject, right. And so we interviewed them for 10 minutes. And then we posted, we kind of packaged it a little bit so it felt a little packaged. But you know, we have a little, little, little startup video and a little end of the thing. But we posted all of them. And honestly, in 24 hours, we interviewed maybe, I don't know, like 12 or 13 people. And then so because they were only 10-minute interviews, we'd asked everybody to prep in advance. But we we just banged them out and made them available. And man, I tell you, it's so great from a learning standpoint. So to answer your question, Mark, I want to do more of that, where we're trying to find more ways to do just-in-time learning for our folks inside of Gallup and then for the constituencies, like the Certified Coaches. What are more ways we can do that kind of thing? And, and that's, that's really exciting for me.

Jim Collison 48:16

Those were fun to create. I'm kind of a long-form community guy. So when, when we did these, I was like, Oh, this, this is very interesting. And I, like, they were actually very fast to do. I, you know, we're talking maybe an hour from beginning to end, including me editing them. So, you know, the recording, I immediately downloaded them. I had a template built, put them in the template, ran some scripts across them, boom, we were done. And so a very high ROI for a very low cost. I mean, this is, and when we think about recognition, you did a great job of using this as recognition for them. So hey, we want to highlight you because you've done such a great job on this. And it gives them a great opportunity to be recognized among their peers. So it just got a lot of, it got a lot of great run on that one.

Jim Collison 49:03

Lisa asks, When we're thinking about, you know, we're talking about the online portion of learning and flipping the classroom, how have you adapted that to offline learning? And I'm going to say, What do you think we'll take from this time and superimpose over in-person learning (I'm assuming that's what she's meaning by offline learning) in the future? Anything great that we'll take from this? Like, I love the polls. I don't know if I want to go back to in-person because those get harder again. You know?

Dean Jones 49:27

Yeah, I would tell you, you know, Lisa, this sounds funny, but, you know, I was always a big guy, like when -- I've constructed a lot of learning programs over the last 30 years. And I always, always have a big guy on people doing prework or work between sessions, because I think that's a helpful, I think it's helpful to be able to do that just period. Right. I will tell you that I used to get worried about if people were watching videos between sessions that they were perfectly polished, or felt like they were on brand or that kind of thing. I would tell you I have, my -- maybe this is horrible to say, but -- my standards for that have lowered, right?

Dean Jones 50:06

There are pieces where I've had people go and listen to podcasts or listen to prior sessions that we've recorded below. And I don't worry so much about the packaging of it. I'm more concerned about is that, is it the right content? And am I setting up people to be able to do that? So I also think, to Jim's point, gosh, I can't imagine that organizations that are -- I think the smart organizations that are seeing how people can be trained in development, developed in this way, I don't think we'll go back to the level of in-person training that we did before. I think that this will become much more the norm. I do think that we will have in-person events and in-person trainings. But I think, I think we've gotten so good at this. And I think we've opened up so many avenues where we can use this that I think, I think that we'll really continue to do that. So hopefully, yeah.

Jim Collison 51:00

I think about, when I used to, we'd do in-person training, and I'd get a chance to get in the classroom for a few minutes and talk to the folks that were there. And I'd ased many of them, you know, how many have listened to a Theme Thursday, or a Called to Coach? And a third to a half would raise their hand. And I thought, "Holy moly, how did we get this, how did you get to this point and not take advantage of a lot of the free training and learning, you know, and education that's there?" Covered a lot of that stuff on Theme Thursday."

Jim Collison 51:28

And so I think they're, I think we, people will be more willing to do that prework. In other words, to get in there digitally, get it done, listen to it as a podcast, listen to it on YouTube, whatever. Consume that before the training, because that really makes the training go a lot faster. Like if you, if you've, if you've kind of prepared the ground, then when you get there, you have those questions to ask, right, that are ready to go.

Jim Collison 51:52

As we, as we wrap this, Summer asks this question: Best ways to wrap a call and then give them something that sticks at the end? Everyone I work with is going straight on to another Zoom call. We have this challenge right now, Dean. It's, it's 12:55 in the Central Time Zone. We're gonna wrap this in a minute, and then everybody that's in the chat room is gonna go do something else. Exactly. So call to actions, right? How do we do this? Or what would we say about that?

Dean Jones 52:18

The thing that I do, my technique, right, is one is that if you know Bloom's Taxonomy, you know that synthesis is a really high thinking level. The other thing that, when I train consultants, you know, one of the, the, the, the key thing that great consultants can do is synthesize multiple data points or multiple inputs into kind of a cohesive or coherent thought. So synthesis is super important. I always save time at the end and I ask people to tell me, What did you learn? It sounds funny, 2 weeks ago, I finished leading this, this course for this group of consultants, I think I mentioned that before. One of the things I asked them to do over the course of the next 2 weeks, and they're all doing it, even today, because today's the deadline, is just share with me what you learned.

Dean Jones 53:04

So I like people to share it at the end of the course. But I also like people to come back and -- we do it in Microsoft Teams, because that's the platform we use -- but I have, and sometimes I have people send me an email. But I have people come back and, come back and tell me what they learned. Because then it gives me a good read on Where did I land things? And where did I not land things?

Dean Jones 53:24

I would tell you, you know, just as the, the quick recap on this whole session: There's a lot of conversation in the chat here about what happens when things go wrong, or how do you, how do you make sure it's the highest impact, that kind of thing? I think the best advice for people is just to lean into your commitment to people and your love for people. And it sounds funny. I, it's not that I lean on a particular talent theme. I use my talents in the work that I do. But the thing that I think about, I think that, at the end of the day, it's not about the level of polish, but the level of authenticity. And it's particularly where you lean into your commitment to people. That's the piece that is going to make all the difference in the world.

Dean Jones 54:10

So we know it's not easy to become a Gallup-Certified Strengths Coach. We know it's not easy necessarily all the time to figure out, How am I going to teach them about strengths or generate, help them generate insights? But your commitment to do that and your love for people I think is, at the end of the day, the thing that's going to make the biggest impact.

Jim Collison 54:30

Dean, as we look, one last question, as we look ahead to 2021, more of the same virtually, do you feel like? If we, if you were just to kind of look at the year and kind of where we're at, more of the same, lean into that? Do you think we'll get to a spot where we maybe get to do in-person again? Just -- I'm not asking you to predict the future, but your thoughts?

Dean Jones 54:51

Yeah, I think, so yeah, I mean, no one knows the future, right. But I think just, at least here in the U.S., I think that by the end of the second quarter, I think there's gonna be a, enough people that are vaccinated that it's safe to come out of your house. I think, by the way, in the next 2 or 3 months, that next 2 or 3 months are going to be a really critical time for us all to say stay safe, right, and be careful and be cautious and stay safe. But I think by the end of the second quarter, I think that's going to be the case. I do think that, I do think -- and I may be a little optimistic, but I do think that this has fundamentally reshaped the way we think about learning and connecting with people. And so I think that, I think we're, it's not like it's, all of a sudden, it's going to be like, Hey, we're gonna flip everything back, and people are gonna spend millions of dollars on travel again, and -- I just don't think that's gonna happen. You know?

Jim Collison 55:44

A couple couple comments coming in just on stuff they've learned. I challenged the chat room. OK. CTA: What have you learned? Barbara says, being authentic. Justin says, confirmation to some of my thinking around smaller groups versus large groups. Mark says, learn the value of polls. That is good. Yeah! I know a company that does that pretty well. Lisa says, I learned not to be afraid of giving people prework in videos to do. So, so great. Some great opportunities of things learned. I think that's a little trick we learned too: Ask them what they learned. Repeat it back to the group, just so people kind of see that, and a great opportunity.

Jim Collison 56:19

Dean, I think what that, we'll remind everyone to take full advantage of all the resources we have available now in Gallup Access; you mentioned it before. Easiest way into that, by the way: gallup.com/cliftonstrengths. Head out to that site, lots of resources, podcasts, videos, stuff you could download, great information. If you haven't done an audit of that page in a while, you might want to; there's lots of great stuff there. I look like a genius because I just go to that page and then tell people, "Hey, it's here. It's here. It's here," right? So head out there. You could look like a genius too and know some of the information's out there. For coaching, master coaching or to become a Gallup-Certified Strengths Coach, of course, you can contact us. Just send us an email: coaching@gallup.com. We'd love to help you do that. Stay up to date with all the webcasts by following us on Eventbrite. Go to gallup.eventbrite.com. Follow us there; there's a Follow button, and you'll get an email notification every time I post something new. I'm getting ready to post all of the first quarter Called to Coaches that are coming up, including a couple with Dean. So you want to make sure you're signed up and ready to get those notifications so you don't miss any of them. We are excited to announce the 2021 Virtual Summit, which is coming up. Getting kind of excited. Two days June 8-9. Dean, that's going to be here like that, like just super fast. It's going to, it's coming up. So if you want to get signed up for it, special virtual price. Two days of learning. It's going to be incredible. Head out to gallupatwork.com. All the details out there are as well. If you want to join us on any of our social sites, just search "CliftonStrengths" on any of them and you'll find us. We got a lot of stuff out there and a lot of stuff, good stuff going on. Thanks for listening today. If you found this useful, we'd ask that you'd share it. And with that, we'll say, Goodbye, everybody.

Dean Jones' Top 5 CliftonStrengths are Activator, Focus, Woo, Strategic and Relator.